DSMLink Tuning Wiz: Stephen Johnson

[MHT]

Definitely must give a huge shout-out "THANK YOU" to Stephen Johnson for the wrenching and tuning on Mile High Talon recently.

We got the PLX wideband O2, 1600cc injectors, Aeromotive FPR, HKS SSQV BOV, and test pipe installed on Mon. during that 103F record heat. Changed over to E85 yesterday afternoon, and then with 10-15 minutes of Stephen working the laptop the car was all dialed-in & running great!

As Scott Yorga can attest, Stephen really knows his stuff! I'd say he's certainly one of the Best, and possibly the Best DSMLink tuner in the US!!:D

THANK YOU Stephen!!!! You Rock!!!!!
James

[Scott Y]

Yup, agreed. He knows how to extract horsepower out of DSMs w/DSMLink.

One of the things I like about him is his approachability. At the track he flagged me down after he recognized the car and offered to look at the laptop out of the blue with no prompting from me. He suggested some changes, and then said to stop by after the next run so he could check out the differences.

He definitely doesn't give off any vibes resembling 'I am DSMLink god, bow down while I do your car the favor of being tuned by ME!' Rather, he's totally unassuming and shares his knowledge and let's the results speak for themselves. Reminds me of a shirt I saw at the DSM Shootout last year; it said 'Run your car, not your mouth.'

So, Jack M for the hardware, Stephen J for the software. Just have to tighten the nut behind the wheel and not break anything!

[biglady112]

Thank you for the kind words gentlemen. I wouldn't say some of those things about myself, but it is nice to hear that I can help and others can benefit from it.

I pride myself on results and repeatable results. I can never seem to get enough and can never seem to be satisfied. My goals anymore are to maximize everything we can about the way the engine runs. If the car can only run low boost, then damnit if it won't run 110% at low boost.

I enjoy thinking out loud and letting others share their ideas and concerns with me. Blowing things up is not our goal. Running fast and safe and A LOT is what we want.

I think tonight James and I made 10-12 pulls in an hour without ever stopping the car for a rest. He is now running 20psi(in 280,000 miles the car has never seen a boost level that high) and the car is at its quickest and fastest. Even with the 27.5" tires we were still hauling some serious ass. James had to make me stop and had to remind me that we will have the new T67 on the car within a week or so. He just wanted to get out and have a little fun. I thought we were setting the car up for the new turbo. Oh well, it took a beating and handed out some whoop ass tonight.

James beat a WRX in a impromptu drag race. We were about 3-4 cars behind this subaru when we changed lanes. I guess he thought we were racing and gunned it. Well before we shut down some where at the top of third bottom of fourth we had a good full car length on the WRX. Not bad for a little 16g at 20psi. Too bad we have to do hard work and put a clutch in soon. THe T67 is going to smoke the stocker in a hurry.

Dsmlink rocks. Glad I have this great tool to use and share. Cars going fast makes me happy. And when others continue to better themselves, that makes me even happier.

Steven

[Overkill]

Maybe you could share your approach to tuning with DSMlink for those of us who are newbies to it. From my standpoint I simply started adding fuel to help avoid getting knock at 500 rpm prior to the the knock starting.

This has tapered my car from getting knock, which is obviously a good thing, but what can I do to help get the car to spool up better. I have a 60 trim and my first instinct is to lean out the lower RPM range to get more exhaust velocity. Is this the right approach or should I start elsewhere.

Before I get to involved I need to replaced my head gasket as it likes to lift under boost, but afterwards I plan to start tweaking the car to get more performance out of it.

[yokotabrat]

If it helps, I can share a few of my experiences.

Timing is where I think the most power gains are at. I usually just set the air/fuel ratio at something safe and then tune timing to maximize power or reduce knock. There's a particular timing for each car at a given rpm that will make the most power. Above or below it and the car makes less power. Usually you can't go above this level on pump gas because you're usually limited by knock. On my car low timing and high boost worked well on the 16g. Every car is different, though.

Spool up is a very interesting subject. My only experience is with antilag/stutterbox. Less timing meant more boost at the line. I've read that the same can be said during turbo spoolup. Reduce the timing and you'll decrease the spoolup. I haven't tried this personally, yet, though.

Hopefully some of this helps.

[Overkill]

I just want to clarify that your saying less timing will decrease spool time and not decrease spooling in general?

[yokotabrat]

I just want to clarify that your saying less timing will decrease spool time and not decrease spooling in general?

Correct. Less timing will reduce the time it takes to spool the turbo. From what I've read... :)

[Kibo]

Correct. Less timing will reduce the time it takes to spool the turbo. From what I've read... :)
That's my understanding as well, although I have yet to tune a worthwhile setup on a platform where I had independent control over fuel and timing.

[biglady112]

Overkill, give me a call and we can discuss it more. Heck we can make arrangements for you to come by and we can tune it together. Do you have a wideband?

Select timing and ramp down fuel on spool up.

Big boost, low timing(depending on the car(big turbos need low timing)) on top

Flat consistent fuel curve from full boost to rev limit

I don't tune off the knock sensor persay. I use it as a tool, and keep it to 1* or retard or less. I like for it not to give any feed back. Having a flat, stable and known fuel curve is the key. Everything is based off of that or I just get her running good enough until we have a known fuel mixture. There are other secrets but I would rather tell each person in person rather than here. It is fun tuning and the fact I get to meet more people and ride/drive more cars. Don't want others going to "SHOPS" that I may or may not like when I can have fun.

Steven

[D Walker]

This is interesting- please enlighten me Steven- what AFR is it that you look for? because I find AFR is not nearly as important to proper tuning as is proper timing.

[TheJackal]

If it helps, I can share a few of my experiences.

Timing is where I think the most power gains are at. I usually just set the air/fuel ratio at something safe and then tune timing to maximize power or reduce knock. There's a particular timing for each car at a given rpm that will make the most power. Above or below it and the car makes less power. Usually you can't go above this level on pump gas because you're usually limited by knock. On my car low timing and high boost worked well on the 16g. Every car is different, though.

Spool up is a very interesting subject. My only experience is with antilag/stutterbox. Less timing meant more boost at the line. I've read that the same can be said during turbo spoolup. Reduce the timing and you'll decrease the spoolup. I haven't tried this personally, yet, though.

Hopefully some of this helps.

Theres not a perfect timing (eye of the beholder if you will), the power will ramp up, plateau, and then it knocks, this "window" I have seen as big as 8*. The only way to get the timing that is the best for your engine is to have a load bearing dyno.

[XakEp]

Personally I've seen people make big power with HIGH airflow and low timing, with a flat AFR. Proper tuning is not about aiming for 2 parts of the system - its about getting everything in balance. AFR, timing, airflow (yes, this is done with parts selection as well as at the ECU) and a number of other things.

Each car is different, so answering questions over the forum is good for a GENERAL idea, but it wont get you where you need to be to make power.

[D Walker]

Every car is deifferent, on my 2.0litre I made 500awhp@6500rpm and 24psi with about 20deg of timing. My AFR was about 11.9/12.1 ish, but what is important is the tuning process, in which power is safely achieved.

[biglady112]

Well Don as you know Dsmlink works off the stock mitsubishi maps. So I/we can only correct a given amount that the software will let us. I just tune for industry standards for the types of fuels. Still playing with E85 as some cars do better than others, but most seem to do well enough with 11.5:1.

Timing again as you know is based/adjusted off the stock maps. So I adjust to what each car will allow. I try to keep ignition timing at or below 18* with a serious turbo. This is of course on top of the 5* base timing.

Dsmlink is not nor will ever be as capable as AEM and other aftermarket tuning devices. NOr will it ever allow for such fine adjustments and control. I just try to get good round about numbers that allow the car to hold together and perform when asked to. I have only done a few(2-3) all out stupid tunes. The ones were any slight mishap and things are over.

I generally add timing after VE starts to drop on to though. It really seems to help with the smaller turbos. Or if the car has a stock head/intake/cam combination.

I am no miracle worker. I just enjoy helping others out and watching the cars perform and react positively. I don't do anything that anyone else can't do with the program. It is all there for each person to use and have success with. You just have to snoop around a little and use the other things in the program. Remember, the main function for DSMlink is it is a datalogger. And that is all I use it for. Give us the information and tweak until desirable results are found.

Steven

[biglady112]

Yes Don, you said it right. SAFELY ACHIEVED. No one likes blowing **** up.

Steven

[biglady112]

Sorry Don. I didn't answer your question directly. I like to tune for the industry standards as they are sfae benchmarks, and depending on the racing application we tune the rest of the dynamics around that.

IE- salt flat racing(this project has been fun), drag racing, road racing or regular street flogging.

Salt we tune for good power that the motor can sustain for 90-180 seconds at a time.

Drag is of course all out and is best messed with at the track.

Road racing is good power and umphh all around that can be beat on for 30 minutes at a time. I like tuning these cars on pump gas as it is easily accessible, cheaper and can be driven to and from without hassel if need be.

Street similar to road racing with a little bit extra punch and top end.

Damn cars are awesome. Internal combustion has got to be the single best invention ever.

Steven

[D Walker]

This is a pretty good read regarding AFR vs Timing- it pretty much says what some other articles have said.

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/resources/rich.php


Application Note: You CAN be too Rich
By Klaus Allmendinger, VP of Engineering, Innovate Motorsports
Many people with turbochargers believe that they need to run at very rich mixtures. The theory is that the excess fuel cools the intake charge and therefore reduces the probability of knock. It does work in reducing knock, but not because of charge cooling. The following little article shows why.

First let’s look at the science. Specific heat is the amount of energy required to raise 1 kg of material by one degree K (Kelvin, same as Celsius but with 0 point at absolute zero). Different materials have different specific heats. The energy is measured in kJ or kilojoules:

Air ~ 1 kJ/( kg * deg K)
Gasoline 2.02 kJ/( kg * deg K)
Water 4.18 kJ/( kg * deg K)
Ethanol 2.43 kJ/( kg * deg K)
Methanol 2.51 kJ/( kg * deg K)

Fuel and other liquids also have what's called latent heat. This is the heat energy required to vaporize 1 kg of the liquid. The fuel in an internal combustion engine has to be vaporized and mixed thoroughly with the incoming air to produce power. Liquid gasoline does not burn. The energy to vaporize the fuel comes partially from the incoming air, cooling it. The latent heat energy required is actually much larger than the specific heat. That the energy comes from the incoming air can be easily seen on older carbureted cars, where frost can actually form on the intake manifold from the cooling of the charge.

The latent heat values of different liquids are shown here:

Gasoline 350 kJ/kg
Water 2256 kJ/kg
Ethanol 904 kJ/kg
Methanol 1109 kJ/kg

Most engines produce maximum power (with optimized ignition timing) at an air-fuel-ratio between 12 and 13. Let's assume the optimum is in the middle at 12.5. This means that for every kg of air, 0.08 kg of fuel is mixed in and vaporized. The vaporization of the fuel extracts 28 kJ of energy from the air charge. If the mixture has an air-fuel-ratio of 11 instead, the vaporization extracts 31.8 kJ instead. A difference of 3.8 kJ. Because air has a specific heat of about 1 kJ/kg*deg K, the air charge is only 3.8 C (or K) degrees cooler for the rich mixture compared to the optimum power mixture. This small difference has very little effect on knock or power output.

If instead of the richer mixture about 10% (by mass) of water would be injected in the intake charge (0.008 kg Water/kg air), the high latent heat of the water would cool the charge by 18 degrees, about 4 times the cooling effect of the richer mixture. The added fuel for the rich mixture can't burn because there is just not enough oxygen available. So it does not matter if fuel or water is added.

So where does the knock suppression of richer mixtures come from?

If the mixture gets ignited by the spark, a flame front spreads out from the spark plug. This burning mixture increases the pressure and temperature in the cylinder. At some time in the process the pressures and temperatures peak. The speed of the flame front is dependent on mixture density and AFR. A richer or leaner AFR than about 12-13 AFR burns slower. A denser mixture burns faster.

So with a turbo under boost the mixture density raises and results in a faster burning mixture. The closer the peak pressure is to TDC, the higher that peak pressure is, resulting in a high knock probability. Also there is less leverage on the crankshaft for the pressure to produce torque, and, therefore, less power.

Richening up the mixture results in a slower burn, moving the pressure peak later where there is more leverage, hence more torque. Also the pressure peak is lower at a later crank angle and the knock probability is reduced. The same effect can be achieved with an optimum power mixture and more ignition retard.

Optimum mix with “later” ignition can produce more power because more energy is released from the combustion of gasoline. Here’s why: When hydrocarbons like gasoline combust, the burn process actually happens in multiple stages. First the gasoline molecules are broken up into hydrogen and carbon. The hydrogen combines with oxygen from the air to form H2O (water) and the carbon molecules form CO. This process happens very fast at the front edge of the flame front. The second stage converts CO to CO2. This process is relatively slow and requires water molecules (from the first stage) for completion. If there is no more oxygen available (most of it consumed in the first stage), the second stage can't happen. But about 2/3 of the energy released from the burning of the carbon is released in the second stage. Therefore a richer mixture releases less energy, lowering peak pressures and temperatures, and produces less power. A secondary side effect is of course also a lowering of knock probability. It's like closing the throttle a little. A typical engine does not knock when running on part throttle because less energy and therefore lower pressures and temperatures are in the cylinder.

This is why running overly-rich mixtures can not only increase fuel consumption, but also cost power.

[yokotabrat]

Theres not a perfect timing (eye of the beholder if you will), the power will ramp up, plateau, and then it knocks, this "window" I have seen as big as 8*. The only way to get the timing that is the best for your engine is to have a load bearing dyno.

I think this depends on the fuel used. Race gas would allow for a larger plateau as you say. I still think, theoretically, at some point power should drop off as you increase timing and don't get knock. I don't have any proof, though.

[XakEp]

I generally add timing after VE starts to drop on to though. It really seems to help with the smaller turbos. Or if the car has a stock head/intake/cam combination.

So here's a question. Seeing as we dont have a way to see how the ECU see our VE curve, or the mathematical formula it is derived from, how do you know when youve moved past the top of the VE curve? Esp considering that once you modify the motor, you've changed (not just moved up in the RPM band) the face of the VE curve entirely.

You cant go off airflow drop off. Esp on a car like mine where I've yet to see it drop off! I'm interested to know how you do that. Might be something I'm missing in my own tuning.

Pertinent mods -

SC63 turbo w/S cover
4g64 bottom end
BJ Manifold
portmatched 1g head
64414 cams
3" IC piping
3" FMIC core
3" exhaust
65mm TB
Turbonetics Manifold cryo treated

VE operates off the GIGO principle. Garbage In, Garbage Out. Every part of the car that touches the air as it flows in and out of the motor will effect the VE curve in a different way.

[yokotabrat]

I try to keep ignition timing at or below 18* with a serious turbo. This is of course on top of the 5* base timing.



Does DSMLink not automatically assume 5* base timing? On a 1g logger, the timing advance displayed is the total timing advance (assuming base timing is set for 5*), not timing + 5* base. It sounds like you're saying 18* + 5* = 23* total timing. Or am I reading you wrong Steven? I'm not as familiar with DSMLink.

[XakEp]

Does DSMLink not automatically assume 5* base timing? On a 1g logger, the timing advance displayed is the total timing advance (assuming base timing is set for 5*), not timing + 5* base. It sounds like you're saying 18* + 5* = 23* total timing. Or am I reading you wrong Steven? I'm not as familiar with DSMLink.

I know 2g DSMlink does.

[biglady112]

WHoops. You guys got me. Was momentarily thinking about AEM there. If you log the car while it is off it will show 5.2* on both 1G's and 2G's. My bad you guys are right.

Quinn, with your standard 2.4L rev limit, you may not see huge gains by adding timing where VE drops off. With your big well breathing motor, I would have to say it is beyond where you probably want to rev your car. I am no VE expert. In fact I probably don't know **** about it. I have actually read even less. Just from what I have seen here and there it is past the point where your motor is making stable and efficient power.

I would venture to say that you might not be able to get away with much on top. Most of the big turbos I have played with don't let you get aggressive on top. Only about 1-3* depending on fuel. Believe it or not, the stock timing maps usually work really well for big turbos, that is if you have no actual knock. But I am sure there is plenty to be had down low and in the fat of the boost curve in your car. I seem to be able to make big and small turbo cars have serious torque at the onslaught of boost. I dont get too crazy right in the middle(5000-6000) on most cars. Everything above that usually is just what the car repsonds too. Some 14b/16g cars really like timing(+4-7*) at and above 6500rpm. But down low and spool up has become my recent favorite to tinker with.

Because with dsmlink and the stock ecu, once you start knocking, it won't stop. Or at least it will trail down and by that time the ecu has pulled timing back and kicked you in the ass and slowed you down. But as I said Quinn, I would have to see it or a log to see if there is any to be had. But my guess/suggestion would be to get a timing goal and fuel goal in mind on to pand crank the hell out of the boost. If it were my car though, I would shoot for a boost goal and tune around that.

I usually turn the boost up until we see a good 1-2* of knock in the log. Not just a spike but a nice smooth knock curve. Of course we add boost little by little to get there. I leave if not pull timing back a hair here until I feel we are near the limit. Then turn boost down a pound or two and go forward with timing until it tells me to stop. This way we have some room for error.

It all sounds like jibberish and unorthodox, but a car can usually be dialed in in less than 10 runs. And be on point in less than 15. The extra 5 are for good measure and maybe be a little greedy. Most motors wether 2.0, 2.3 or 2.4 seem to be the same. Most setups aren't all that far apart really. At least in the dsmlink world. Now with AEM each car would be a nightmare and have something totally unique and off the wall. Good thing is mitsubishi made it easy for us.

As I said, I am no miracle worker, but I enjoy it and take pride in it. And am always willing to give/take a second opinion. I didn't start out with the knowledge I had, I had to learn from others and make my opinions from there. Some are right, some are wrong.


Quinn and Overkill, if you guys are interested, give me a call sometime and maybe we can meet up and put our heads together. I see each car as a task and have to conquer each one.

Steven
720-299-7057

[D Walker]

Using an AWD dyno with AEM I can have a car tuned within 2 hours to pretty near peak potential. I just tuned a fairly modified(2 litre GT35R) car on Super Rupairs loading dyno from dumping the original fuel and timing maps completely(after basemapping cold) to a 30whp increase(heat soaked) over its original tune(cold) and a night and day difference in drivability. There is a very specific process to tuning a car.

[XakEp]

Kid was fussy last night and had to get to bed early. Sorry for the delay.


Quinn, with your standard 2.4L rev limit, you may not see huge gains by adding timing where VE drops off. With your big well breathing motor, I would have to say it is beyond where you probably want to rev your car. I am no VE expert. In fact I probably don't know **** about it. I have actually read even less. Just from what I have seen here and there it is past the point where your motor is making stable and efficient power.

There isnt a whole lot on it anywhere I've seen. Its a really complicated situation to figure out. In fact, the only SOLID way I've seen to adapt to the VE curve is to be very careful in picking your parts out. There really isnt a whole lot you can do in the ECU without steering like a blind quadrapalegic.

You can bump the VE curve in the direction you want to go by getting parts that will deliver drivability results like you want. Cams, intake etc.


I would venture to say that you might not be able to get away with much on top. Most of the big turbos I have played with don't let you get aggressive on top. Only about 1-3* depending on fuel. Believe it or not, the stock timing maps usually work really well for big turbos, that is if you have no actual knock. But I am sure there is plenty to be had down low and in the fat of the boost curve in your car. I seem to be able to make big and small turbo cars have serious torque at the onslaught of boost. I dont get too crazy right in the middle(5000-6000) on most cars. Everything above that usually is just what the car repsonds too. Some 14b/16g cars really like timing(+4-7*) at and above 6500rpm. But down low and spool up has become my recent favorite to tinker with.

Last time I took my car to the dyno it made 400 some odd HP with 16 degrees of timing. My AFR was waaaaaay too rich (somewhere around 9:1) and my airflow was pretty decent, never stopped climbing. Boost (all hail E-boost) was flat. I mean I've never seen a boost log that was FLAT (to the decimal place) like this.

I'm as guilty as the next guy (perhaps even more so) of buying a ****load of parts and putting them on, instead of planning out where I wanted to go with the car. Boy have I learned that was a mistake! This car is going to be a pump gas ***** for the forseeable future, and maybe next year (after bodywork and interior redux) it'll see race gas and high ass boost.

My setup just doesnt need high timing to make good power on pump gas. I have a few bugs to tune out (like an AFR level that wont ****ing go over 10:1) before I start dinking with the timing anyway.

Because with dsmlink and the stock ecu, once you start knocking, it won't stop. Or at least it will trail down and by that time the ecu has pulled timing back and kicked you in the ass and slowed you down. But as I said Quinn, I would have to see it or a log to see if there is any to be had. But my guess/suggestion would be to get a timing goal and fuel goal in mind on to pand crank the hell out of the boost. If it were my car though, I would shoot for a boost goal and tune around that.

See above for timing/AFR notes. One problem is that I cant get the damn car to temp. It gets to about 150 and sits, and the stock ECU will pull timing if youre under 180. So either I offset the coolant temp or I figure this out.

I usually turn the boost up until we see a good 1-2* of knock in the log. Not just a spike but a nice smooth knock curve. Of course we add boost little by little to get there. I leave if not pull timing back a hair here until I feel we are near the limit. Then turn boost down a pound or two and go forward with timing until it tells me to stop. This way we have some room for error.

The car made 400HP on 17 psi. Max knock was .7 degrees and it was for a split second. I'd bet if I leaned out the AFR it would prolly go away.

It all sounds like jibberish and unorthodox, but a car can usually be dialed in in less than 10 runs. And be on point in less than 15. The extra 5 are for good measure and maybe be a little greedy. Most motors wether 2.0, 2.3 or 2.4 seem to be the same. Most setups aren't all that far apart really. At least in the dsmlink world. Now with AEM each car would be a nightmare and have something totally unique and off the wall. Good thing is mitsubishi made it easy for us.

If you know your car pretty well you can have it dialed in in 5 runs or less. Each car is different, so its important you know the car before you start dialing it in.

As I said, I am no miracle worker, but I enjoy it and take pride in it. And am always willing to give/take a second opinion. I didn't start out with the knowledge I had, I had to learn from others and make my opinions from there. Some are right, some are wrong.

BTDT, w0rd.

[g34rh34d]

Just wanted to send a very big thank you to Steve J; He took some time out this afternoon and tuned my car. Did a hell of a job, definitely knows his stuff! A stand up guy for sure!

Thanks man! :o

I guess the quest is now to get a different boost controler, so we can go past 22psi. Well, then injectors... and a wideband.. ;)

FH

[biglady112]

Very nice meeting you Frank. Beautiful car man. I am glad she held together and you got to see that there is a ton of potential there. Not bad for 22psi. Not too man issues, but I hope the things we talked about will improve how it runs and we can turn the boost up and get aggressive with it. Always nice to ride in a car that is well done. And nice to tune when the car is ready.

Just let me know when you want to go to the track and we will see if we can get close to the 12 second range. Not quite there, but real close.

Steven

[g34rh34d]

Very nice meeting you Frank. Beautiful car man. I am glad she held together and you got to see that there is a ton of potential there. Not bad for 22psi. Not too man issues, but I hope the things we talked about will improve how it runs and we can turn the boost up and get aggressive with it. Always nice to ride in a car that is well done. And nice to tune when the car is ready.

Just let me know when you want to go to the track and we will see if we can get close to the 12 second range. Not quite there, but real close.

Steven

Thanks man! It was fun! Been a while since I have gotten off my butt to do anything with it.. Nice to have a few extra HP! :D

FH

[g34rh34d]

On the subject, it seems that the dsmlink forums page is down, or at least I haven't been able to log in. Has the page location changed? is it down?

Id like to see whats new, havent been there in a while either.

FH

[g34rh34d]

On the subject, it seems that the dsmlink forums page is down, or at least I haven't been able to log in. Has the page location changed? is it down?

Id like to see whats new, havent been there in a while either.

FH

OOPs nevermind, I had an old link for it. googled it and got the new one. (duh):rolleyes: