1G head on 2G block running issues

[strippedlug]

I hope I posted this in the right forum, I couldn't find a better place:
This is what I have: I saved this 95 Talon AWD TSI from the bone yard after some kid slipped the balance shaft belt and snapped every exhaust valve completely off (I'll send pics another time)
I replaced the pistons, connecting rods with 2G.
1st G replacement parts are as follows:
1G Head
1G Intake Manifold
1G Turbo (why not?)
1G coolant pipe
1G Cam Angle Sensor
2G MAF (is this a problem with the 1G Intake?)
I removed the smashed crank sensor and used the 1G Cam Sensor as described in the detailed instructions on http://www.roadraceengineering.com/1...2g95-96m2.html
I also used a stripped down vacuum diagram to only include BOV, wastegate, fuel regulator
My issue is this. The car runs, barely at idle with almost no throttle control. It seems to be starving for fuel? If I spray just a bit of intake cleaner in the intake vacuum port, it smooths out, full throttle control, and awesome response. If I pinch the return line of the regulator, it also smooths out and will keep running. I know a MAF issue can duplicate this sort of thing, but with so much 1G and 2G mixed, I don't know what's causing what!
Base Timing is perfect. Plugs and wires are new and haven't fired long enough to tell me a story by looking at them. No CEL, and ECU data looks great. Is the MAF being thrown off by the 1G Intake? Has anyone experienced something like this? I pray I was descriptive enough and didn't confuse my potential savior. I wanted my first post to be a success story, but alas I'll say it...I NEED HELP! This is a prestine DSM inside and out! Wish it'd run as good as it looks... I'll gladly post the fix if I find it!

[strippedlug]

I've done alot of testing with no results. Here's what I did:
Boost leak test---Embarrassed to say it wouldn't hold pressure for 1 sec.
Fixed Throttle body to manifold gasket leak
Fixed vacuum to port "P" (I think)
Fixed minor PCV hose leak
No better starting or idling, same exact issue. Didn't even make a difference though I'm sure it would've been like riding a bull if driven down the road later on. Better to fix what I know is wrong, even if it doesn't fix my main concern.

2G TPS sensor--I went over RoadRaceEngineering.com instructions for 1G head to 2G block and it mentions specifically to re-use the 2G TPS. I don't know how I missed it but today I installed it, and adjusted it with a feeler guage and multimeter. No difference in starting or idling.

Replaced Autolite part #63 plugs with NGK Iridium plugs: the verdict on the Autolite plugs was both surprising and not surprising at the same time. Black as coal after only 2 hours worth of starting and attempting to diagnose the other night.

So I'm running really RICH instead of my assumed LEAN condition. This is telling me it's definately a sensor, ECU issue since even though I'm running RICH, a quick spray of intake cleaner into the intake ports immediately makes for a beautiful running engine.
This really stumps me and I've run out of things to test.
All I keep thinking about is that damned MAF sensor, but I have found no definitive way of testing for good A/F mixture. And I have NO CEL light. Standard ECU Data using a Snap-On Scanner looks great.

On to the fuel pressure test: An inline fuel pressure test after the filter resulted in 50psi at idle. PERFECT right?

Maybe the black plugs are not due to too much fuel, but not strong enough spark? Installed 1G Coil pack and 1G resistor
NO difference.

Rechecked O2 sensors and connectors and all good.
Also used a "Ground Distribution circuit" diagram to help me figure out if I left any ground wires loose or hanging. I'm going to enclose this diagram tomorrow because it's a great source of information for alot of wiring problems. Tells you what each ground controls,and where it's located.

So this is it. Day two, alot done and no improvements. I'm not going to give up, but even though I diagnose driveability issues for a living, I, as well as my local colleagues, are stumped! WHAT AM I MISSING??? If anyone out there can at least throw some ideas of things to test that I may have missed, it would be great!!!

[Kibo]

On to the fuel pressure test: An inline fuel pressure test after the filter resulted in 50psi at idle. PERFECT right?
That's rather high, actually. Base fuel pressure for a 2G is 43psi, so you should be seeing something closer to ~36psi at idle (depending on how much vacuum you're pulling).

Since you have a 1G intake manifold and don't have DSMlink, what did you do with the 2G MAP sensor?

When you say "ECU data looks great", does that mean you have logging capability? Logs would go a long way towards helping diagnose the problem.

[dsm_gsx97]

Fixed vacuum to port "P" (I think)


This is a boost source port. Not vacuum. MAP sensor must still be in there if your running the EGR system. If your not plug all those ports on the throttle body and make sure you have an EGR blockoff. If you are running the EGR system, find a way to get the MAP sensor on there and get your vacuum lines and pressure lines correct on the TB.

Also explain how you did your cam angle sensor...did you go with the '97-'99 style or did you use the '95-'96 style and weld aluminum on there? You said you used a 1G one as described but I'm not sure what you did as described because there needs to be a 2G something in there. Either '95-'96 style cam or '97-'99 style. Please explain which one you used.

link again: http://www.roadraceengineering.com/1g2gheadswaptechtip.htm

Include some pics of the engine bay so I can try to spot things that are off and/or log files like Erik said.

[strippedlug]

Thanks alot for the replies! Okay to clear things up:I'm not running an EGR system so I'm not using the MAP sensor. I did try running it just to see if it made a difference however and it didn't. The cam sensor rewiring was the same used on roadraceengineering.com 95-96 method 2 I believe (the one that does not require a signal inverter. In other words I have a 1G(1990) CAM sensor wired to work as both cam AND crank signals, and no other CAM sensor and NO crank sensor. Roadrace's methods describe not using the crank sensor at all.
I though running an EGR block off plate was just optional to prevent hot intake air?? I could be wrong but unless the EGR is actually stuck open, it doesn't seem like a block off plate would be a necessary fix for this problem
I have plugged all the throttle body vacuums.
No I'm not using DSMlink or data logger. I used a typical Snap- On Scanner to read factory data (O2 sensors, ECT, base timing, ect)
According to Mitchell On Demand base fuel pressure for a 2 G turbo is 47- 50psi at idle. What source did you use to obtain "36psi at idle"? Mitchell On Demand is a great source of specs, but it has been wrong before.
Thanks again for all the help and I hope I've cleared some things up.
Shane

[dsm_gsx97]

According to Mitchell On Demand base fuel pressure for a 2 G turbo is 47- 50psi at idle. What source did you use to obtain "36psi at idle"? Mitchell On Demand is a great source of specs, but it has been wrong before.
Thanks again for all the help and I hope I've cleared some things up.
Shane

He was basically figuring your vacuum at idle into the equation. 2Gs should be 43.5psi base and 1Gs are 38psi base (no vacuum attached). Take vacuum into account and your probably 36-38psi at idle.

So I hadn't ever gotten to that link about the 1G CAS option since since the '97 cam sensor was easy to set up since I had it. I went back through the 1g head in a 2G on RRE and found the link your talking about where they use the 1G CAS on the 2G. Which brings up how is your timing? Have you used a light? You now can advance you timing now that your using the 1G CAS, so make sure you timing is correct too.

So, bring down that fuel pressure. Uncap the FPR and bring your base to 43psi (if you have an adjustable FPR) then put the pressure line back on and with vacuum should be 36-38psi. Check the timing and make sure your around 5 degree's at idle and hopefully it should be running better with both of those correct. Let me know what changes you did and what the cars doing now.

[strippedlug]

Okay you have a good point about fuel pressure. In fact I double checked Mitchell On Demand and was I saw the first time was a LINE fuel pressure check (straight from the pump). Timing is beautiful. Two new belts and I love the now adjustable timing. I have it dialed in at exactly 5 degrees at idle according to the Snap-On scanner live data. I have played with it and any other timing setting results in complete no start and intake backfire *eek*.
Now back to the fuel pressure. I do not have an adjustable FPR, but based on the proven swap that this is, I should be able to retain factory FPR. Which brings me to my question: What has caused this spike in FP? I've tried both FPR 1G and 2G with no change (I don't know if I mentioned that before). This is an interesting problem. I've had many debates with my fellow techs at work about fuel pressure existance fuel volume non existance (I won), but this is sort of opposite. Ahh theory just hit me and I have a feeling you'll know this one dsm_gsx....Could it be an insufficient amount of vacuum supplied to the FPR? Not likely since i'm running direct vacuum (I also tried the pressure resistor with no change). But with no vacuum in a fuel system, pressure spikes, so lacking sufficient vacuum could cause an increase...Just a thought, and as I said not likely. I just did a compression test today and found a beautiful 150psi all the way across so my pistons and rings are doing great (some good news in an otherwise horror story).
I'm going to recheck my homemade (yes I said it. hey if anyone has an extra Injen lemme know), air filter intake for leaks. And do ANOTHER boost leak test. Could a slight air intake leak cause such a SEVERE problem? Honestly? Also I checked fuel injector resistance on the currently installed injectors and found 14.9 ohms!!!! Spec is 2-3ohms at appx 60 degrees. My other injectors (off the 1G) are within this spec. However the engine had run for a few minutes and the high resistance could be from warmth. I'll let you know tomorrow if they're the same cold. I may just swap them out anyway. Why not at this point?

Thanks again for your help and support guys! I WILL NOT GIVE UP!!! But she's certainly testing me.
Day 3 done.....on to day 4 wish me luck....

[cotsi95]

So you did do another boost leak after you fixed the first one?

[strippedlug]

yes I did cots. Major TB leak I fixed then retested. Found a small BOV leak and haven't fixed it. I don't have a good reason as to why I haven't, but I started looking at other sources of my driveability problem when the major leak made absolutely no difference in idling or anything else for that matter. Yes I know it will make a diff, and I plan on fixing all leaks tomorrow basically cause I haven't nothing else to try short of what I mentioned in the most recent post... Any ideas feel free to throw them out. I'm trying not to take for granted the simple things, but sometimes it's hard. Especially when you're 4 days into a diag. and still don't even know what part of the system is failing!
I'm trying to be a descriptive as I can, and I know I've been writing books here. I hope that's okay, I just believe a 50% explanation results in a 50% diagnosis. Thanks guys...
Shane

[strippedlug]

Oh one more thing, regarding "dsm_gsx"'s comment about aftermarket FPRs...In your opinion and experience, an FPR could likely help my problem, but don't you think it's just putting a band-aid on the real problem(whatever it may be)? Or is it a reliable CURE? I know it's impossible to say for sure but I just don't want to replace pumps as often as the filter, nor do I want to get caught on a test drive when the ECU re-learns the new A/F and gives me my original problem back...I actually had that happen with my RX-7. The MAF sensor went bad but it ran great unplugged...then re-learn kicked in...on the highway. lol needless to say the ECU wasn't the only thing that learned.
I've enjoyed this Forum alot compared to the self righteous name unmentioned DSM forums that feel the only good response is a smarta** one

[Kibo]

You can not set your timing using the scan tool. The ECU assumes the base timing is set correctly and reports the timing with this assumption figured into the value. You must set the base timing (or check the timing at idle, which is not the same thing) using a timing light.

The "right" way to do this would be to ground the appropriate connector with the motor at operating temp, all accessories turned off, etc. and then check/adjust the base timing. Incidentally, you must also have the scan tool disconnected while doing this. Alternatively, the scan tool may have the ability to put the ECU into this mode without grounding the connector (the Mitsu tool can do this on a 2G, but I'm not familiar with the SnapOn tool).

[dsm_gsx97]

Did you rewire your fuel pump or are you using a larger one than stock? That's the only thing that I've seen jump a stock fuel system that high. I'm really at a loss other than that.

A few boost leaks to fix it sounds like and a timing light to double check your timing for sure. I'm really at a loss about this fuel pressure though. I'm going to re-read through the whole thread and see if I can't think of something else. It's still early and I only have half a Dew down. Need to get the brain jump started here.

[Kibo]

One possible cause for the high fuel pressure would be a blocked or crushed return line.

[strippedlug]

You're right Kibo and looking back at that post I feel I definately should've worded that better! I did use a timing light to adjust the base timing. Since the car barely runs and as we all know it's really hard to get accurate timing light readings with a car that stalls almost immediately, I chose to "check" my setting using the scanner. That is after the timing light did it's job. Really didn't mean to confuse anyone on that one but I see how I did. SORRY...
dsm_gsx no I didn't rewire the fuel pump or use an aftermarket one. I wish I could blame it on that....The ECU rewiring, more specifically, is changing the injector pulse order (or firing order). I changed it back to stock too yesturday just to see if anything could've gone wrong or maybe the ECU in the car is a 97 one, which wouldn't call for a rewire. No results.
Does anyone know what the MAF sensor reading should be in Hg's?
I'm at a loss too dsm-gsx...On one hand I feel better knowing I'm not the only one stumped, but at this point I'd gladly call myself a dumba** for missing something simple. "both cars ran fine" keeps echoing in my head...

[strippedlug]

Kibo or dsm_gsx do you guys know a good place to get a reading for regulated fuel pressure??? Right now I'm tapped into the fuel hose after the filter and before the fuel rail, which to me tells me I can only get PUMP pressure but not REGULATED pressure. There's no test port on either fuel rails I have... Where do you test fuel pressure to get 36-38 readings??

[Kibo]

I am using an inline tap on my fuel line between the filter and fuel rail as well. Perhaps it would be more ideal to have it mounted on the regulator end; but with a stock setup this is pretty much your only choice, and I doubt you would see a discernible difference by mounting it at the regulator end with the fuel demands any of us are likely to have.

[dsm_gsx97]

I am using an inline tap on my fuel line between the filter and fuel rail as well. Perhaps it would be more ideal to have it mounted on the regulator end; but with a stock setup this is pretty much your only choice, and I doubt you would see a discernible difference by mounting it at the regulator end with the fuel demands any of us are likely to have.

Ya, I've had it in both locations (I still need to get that back to you Erik too) and it is not much if any of a difference. Your in a good spot for reading it.

[dsm_gsx97]

I've been thinking about this all day and I really have no answer. What part of town are you located? I might have time Saturday to come by and see if together we can't figure something out. I'm in Arvada, work in Boulder.

[strippedlug]

******FIXED****** The answer was in 12 posts back when I mentioned the injector ohms were 14.6. DSM calls for 2-3 ohms ideal resistance. I pulled the fuel rail and compared the sets of injectors I had on standby and the difference was huge! I don't know what the guy was thinking but they look like injectors you'd find in a muscle car, with a straight spray pattern instead of a fanned out mist. So I swapped out injectors and my problem is solved.
THANK YOU SO MUCH EVERYONE!!!
I do have another problem now that it starts and drives. I'm not pulling NEAR enough boost going down the road. In fact if feels like a non turbo. Reminded me of a Civic!!! I fixed the rest of my boost leaks and I can comfortably hold 20psi with no leaks. I figure this is probably a much more common problem and if I missed a similar problem in the FAQ, i'm sorry. Oh I should also mention I DID check the turbo itself. NO shaft play at all, and I don't really HEAR the spool up at all. Could it be too much or too little vacuum to the internal factory wastegate? You can also very clearly here an air studder coming back OUT of the air filter when you let off the gas. Maybe that'll be a clue for you DSM slueths. Like a "shhh, shhh, shhh, shhh" very fast. I can't figure out what else it could be. A friend at work had an Eclipse with 21psi boost and rode with me and said simply, "No this is not right for stock"....

And there's another problem and REALLY concerns me. At about 1 hour of running, I started hearing a knock in the engine at about 3500rpm. It sounds like lifters but they're not adjustable. I wish I could put a .wav file on here to give you a sample. I am right aren't I? Non adjustable lifters on both 1G and 2G heads? It's got me pretty scared. Still runs great though...Just wondering I guess if 4G63Ts have a bit of knock or tap that is normal. When I looked at the crank while doing the pistons, it didn't look like it has walked at all according to the caps.

[strippedlug]

I just read up on some material on vfaq.com about lifter cleaning, and apparantly noisy lifters is a known issue? It definately sounds like a lifter tap, and now that I think of it, I believe the 1G car I removed the head from had the same noise. It's just that it's barely heard at idle, but revved up it sounds like it's going to fall apart for a moment. I'm going to clean the lifters tomorrow. I was maticulous during this build so I'm sure the motor is tight! *Prays to the DSM gods*.....
As fas as the severe lack of boost, I'm still looking into that.
Shane

[dsm_gsx97]

Yes ticking lifters is on almost every DSM at one point or another. There is a guy in Texas that sells the newer style lifters for around $7 each. I believe the dealer sells them for $12ish. I'll see if I can't dig up the info (Erik do you remember?) for you. I bought mine 3-4 years ago so I don't remembr off hand. You can also clean the ones you got too. I didn't cause I'm lazy.

I don't think I would have caught that clue about the injectors. I figured you were using the stock injectors and completely looked over that. Glad you figured it out. What size are those injectors you were using? If you don't know snap a pic and send them to me so I can look at them. If they're what I think they are I'll maybe buy them from ya.

The wastegate should be hooked up to a boost source. Only vacuum would be at idle when the boost source turns to vacuum. Do you have a boost gauge so you can find out if your even building boost? I'd look at the wastegate and make sure you have a line running to it from a known pressure source to it. Make sure the flapper is on the wastegate arm. If your running a boost controller or anything like that pull it out, but it doesn't sound like you were.

Another thought would be if you have a huge exhaust leak between the head and the manifold or manifold and turbo. You wouldn't build boost then either depending on how big it is. Of course if it was really big you'd hear it too. You probably would have figured it out if it was that. But worth eyeing to see if you see dirty spots from exhaust in those areas.

[strippedlug]

I have another set of lifters from a 2G soaking in oil. They'll work okay in a 1G Head won't they? I think I remember them all being similar enough to cross over.
As far as finding the injector issue, I just got to the point that I simply had nothing else to check! The psi was a clue however.
I definately will snap a shot of those injectors, and I also have a set of Accel 460cc injectors I got for another car. I I don't know if they're low or high impedance though. I'll have to check on that. The black injectors I pulled out yesturday I couldn't begin to tell what the rating is. Is there a way to tell looking at the numbers on the side??
The boost issue you nailed on the head. I ran a straight vacuum line from the intake, pulling the wastegate open constantly. I didn't know better :(. I haven't ran the proper line yet, I just unplugged it completely and test drove it. Found out that not only did I get good boost, but I think I experienced fuel cut for the first time(bucking like a darn bull!), and my dipstick popped out of the tube. That's something in my experience with N/A cars that sends me shopping for an engine. Apparantly it's more common on DSM?? I'd feel more comfortable if it is somewhat normal and not a huge deal.
Back to the lifter replacement, I was going to put them in tonight but it's going to have to wait until tomorrow as my wife got in a minor accident in her Tribute. Everyone's okay but we're going to the doctor to check things out.
Shane

[dsm_gsx97]

Yes those 2G lifters should work fine in there.

If your pretty sure they're smaller than 1000cc's then I don't want them. I run an AEM EMS so the impedance doesn't matter as much for me I'm just looking for some huge injectors for cheap. I think I'll end up with the Ford Bosch 1680cc injectors from a vendor.

Two things could cause a dipstick popup. Most common is valve cover pcv valve and breather on the end not breathing properly or blowby (which was my case. I used duct tape and problem solved :D). Your is most likely the first one. Make sure that the PCV is going to the intake port for it, and that the breather on the UIP side of the valve cover is to the intake pipe. I ran for years with that just to a tube to the ground too, but make sure its 3/8's size. You don't want a small hose doing the job.

Hope everyone is ok.

[Kibo]

If your pretty sure they're smaller than 1000cc's then I don't want them. I run an AEM EMS so the impedance doesn't matter as much for me I'm just looking for some huge injectors for cheap. I think I'll end up with the Ford Bosch 1680cc injectors from a vendor.
Good luck getting those to idle. :)

[strippedlug]

LOL Kibo. I seriously doubt anyone would've put soakers THAT big in a banged up primer black Talon, but if there's a way to cross reference the part #s on the side, I'd be glad to do the research anyways. I also learned that my 2G MAS has already been gutted out. I thought it was straight through from the factory but a friend tells me 2G MAS had honeycombs also. Looks like I'm going to have to shop for a AFC. I wasn't planning on needing one this soon though. Especially since everything's stock, other than the 1G/2G combination. That is of course if it IS in fact fuel cut that I'm feeling. According to complaints I've read on this forum, I think it is though.
And yes everyone is fine dsm_gsx thanks. Just a little front end damage on the Tribute, but everything is plastic and clipped on so in other words, no biggie.
Anyone selling an Apexi SAFC-II for a bargin price let me know!
Shane

[dsm_gsx97]

Good luck getting those to idle. :)

Why would this be an issue? Plenty of people are able to idle the FIC 1600cc's on the EMS and DSMLink lists and they're supposed to be harder to dial in than the Bosch's. Most of the problems on the AEM list date back to 2002-3.

It's a drag car, so idle isn't so much of an issue. Cams already hurt idle along with a giggillion other things I have on my car. Of course I expect to idle around 1K. If worse comes to worse I'd have to buy the AEM injector driver. But I don't forsee that with as many people were able to dial them in on the DSMLink and EMS lists.

[strippedlug]

Hey dsm_gsx, I hate to keep asking a bunch of questions, and this one isn't all that important....I have a theory and please correct me if I'm wrong:
Can I remove and reinstall pistons on 4g63t's from the bottom, by simply removing timing belt, and dropping oil pan and crankshaft(and oil pump but I assume at this point you know what I mean). I didn't really look at that possibility when I installed my bottom end, but for future reference it sure would shorten and simplify installation.
More or less just curious.
I've also been all of over the internet and can't find out if there's any benefit or draw back from bypassing the boost control solenoid. Right now I have the electrical aspect hooked up, but not the vacuum line. It seems that many of the modded DSMs don't use it. If it is needed in my case, then of course I'll hook it up right away.
Shane
P.S. I am searching vfaq.com and other forums for answers before I jump to annoy you. I'm not just leaning on you and your knowledge. Most of the time I can only get a small portion of an answer to my more specific question. Just throwing that disclaimer out there. :)

[rlarsen]

A) Why would you want to remove the pistons from the bottom in the first place? I.E. what's you're goal in doing this?

B) Bypassing the BCS will ostensibly give you a couple extra pounds of boost...there's really no compelling reason to keep it hooked up unless you think it's a significant possibility you'll put 85 octane gas in your car at some point.

[strippedlug]

There isn't a "goal". I recently rebuilt a 2G and did a 1G head conversion. I wanted to know since I have several other long blocks, and it would be a good thing to know. Obviously the time saved would be tremendous, and the only reason needed. I took a good look at one of my stripped blocks since that post, and I see no safe or effective way. I think I mentioned I was just curious.
As far as the BCS, that makes alot of sense. You can still get 85 octane??? ewwww....I wouldn't put that in my lawn mower! lol