First logs in the Colt

[iamtall77]

So I did my first pulls in the Colt yesterday and got some strange readings. I haven't logged any runs on any cars other than my 92 Talon AWD and those readings were in line with what everyone else had. These are a little strange.

First off my current mods are, stock 6 bolt and 90 ECU, 14b 10psi (but creeps to nearly 20psi), stock sidemount, 3" turbo back exhaust w/ Magnaflow muffler, 2G MAS, 450cc injectors, 255lph pump and rewire, SAFC-II, AFPR at 43psi, UICP and crushed 1G BOV. I do have a small boost leak at the throttle body and I did some porting on the O2 housing, but apparently it hasn't stopped the boost creep. It runs 10psi until about 4500rpm and then just creeps until I let off. My WOT on the logger only reads 99.2% as a side note.

I did 4 pulls to about 5800rpm and never had a single count of knock. On those pulls, I never got the O3 voltage above .70v. Not that this is a real tuning variable, but I never got low readings like that without knock. Also, my timing was at 20+ degrees by the end of the pull. This is with 18+psi on the 14b. I also got readings of 50* of timing at low throttle while driving. I checked my base timing (without the plastic timing cover) and it's around 10* at idle. However, my logger reads around 15*+ at idle. Injectors are running at about 70% by 5500rpm as well. I know there's not much I can do about the boost creep, so I'll just tune around it. But should my O2 readings be that low? I don't have an EGT meter to check how hot it's getting, but with no knock, should I be worried? What else do I need to log to make sure everything is working alright? I'm still new at this even though I've had a DSM of some kind for over 6 years now.

[matthewdesigns]

Did you let off at 5800 because of the creep? It'd be nice to see what's going on at redline. Or is this a new motor being broken in and you don't want to take it that high?

Well, this may be perfectly naughty advice but I'd say disregard the o2 reading. I have never used my stock o2 reading for any tuning and am sure that the car's doing fine. I can't even log knock on my 2g...I just use timing, airflow, and rpm's and call it good. I'm sure that if I had a wideband I'd use it, but my stock narrowband never reads the ~.92 everything I've read says it should. It's more like .5-.6 on every pull, sometimes lower than that. And I'm not throwing an o2 CEL, so I'm pretty sure that it's not bad (or not bad enough to throw off the ECU/idle/drivability). And my mileage is no worse than anyone else who's driving around at WOT half the time :p

I'm surprised that you aren't getting any knock up top (even with up top being 5800 on your logs) with those 450's at 18psi. Seems like it would be getting pretty lean, even with the 255.

As for the timing, I can only speak from my limited knowledge of 2g's, so I'll probably be of no help there. BUT, I am usually seeing mid-30's cruising around, nothing as high as 50* that I've ever logged. At idle, I'm around 6-8*. IIRC, the 1g's timing map is a little higher on the top end as compared to the 2g's (like peaking at 20* vs. the 2g's 16* @ >2.1gm/rev).

Somebody please confirm that I'm not driving this fine gentleman off a cliff here with my 1g timing info, or any of this.

If I were you, I'd do a couple of WOT 3rd gear pulls all the way to redline logging airflow, timing, rpm, and knock. Perhaps throw in the o2 reading on one just to see if it's doing anything different than the logs in question here, and at 99.2% the TPS is close enough. I wouldn't log that at all as long as you know from these logs that it reads consistently...just make sure your foot is on the floor when you do your pulls.

[prophecymiller]

Is the car making power on your runs comparable to your mods? Have you checked the fuel pressure throughout a pull? Make sure it isn't dropping off at higher rpms. The timing should be ok on the stock map I would think, unless there is another problem going on.

I would say make sure your readings are reasonable, try to get rid of the boost creep, and then start pulling fuel out until you get some knock. If the car isn't making any power, and still not after pulling fuel, I would say you might have a fuel delivery issue with that low voltage reading from the o2-Even though it's a narrowband, it should still be higher than that at wot.

I am not familiar with your type of logger though, so take this with a grain of salt:cool:

[iamtall77]

I don't have a way to check my fuel pressure while driving. Just the gauge on the FPR. I guess I could pull some fuel, but I'm scared that it might be knocking and I just don't know it. Even when I ran a similar setup on my 92, I got a little knock.

What else can I do to help remove some of the boost creep? I did some porting to the wastegate flapper hole and the housing area already. I could put a cat on the car since it's running without one now. That would give it some restriction and hopefully cure some of it.

The car seems to be making good power on all 4 pulls that I did. It seemed to get a little squirley around 75mph. Maybe that was just because I was watching so many gauges while driving. Guess I'll just have to keep playing.

[iamtall77]

Well, I did a couple more pulls today. Only got one logged though. (logger cable came out under accel) I don't have Excel on my PC and can't upload files to my Mac on the HotSync cable, so I uploaded the logs to Google Docs. It was a little difficult to consolidate the logs, but it works. Here's a couple links to my logs.

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pQlLYqezaX5p-HgPU77xtaA
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pQlLYqezaX5p2aPVQyuTbIw
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pQlLYqezaX5og36HGtI2YSg

The first log is today (2 pulls) and the other 2 are from back in December. Both have 2 pulls on each page. I separated each pull with a TPS value of less than 90% and erased the rest. I didn't go past 5500rpm or so cause I'm still getting boost creep up to 20psi by that point on the stock 14b. I still can't figure out why I don't get any knock though. Is there any way to test the knock sensor to find out if it's working properly? Also, the pull I didn't manage to log, I did in 2nd gear and pulled all the way to 7000rpm. Didn't have time to check the boost gauge, but felt fine and smooth on the pull. I did not hit fuel cut even with the SAFC at about +25%. Any suggestions would be great.

[jaysmirage]

Are you on the 4g61t.com board ? You might check there to see if anyone can help you on your creep issue.

[Kibo]

I can't view your logs from my workplace, but I will comment that checking your timing at idle is not the same thing as checking base timing. To check base timing, you need to disconnect your logger cable from the diagnostic port and ground the diagnostic plug in the engine bay (if you leave the logger plugged in, you're in the idle adjust mode, not base timing adjust).

The logger has no way of knowing what your actual timing is, so it assumes that you've correctly set your base timing to 5 deg. BTDC. In other words, it's adding 5 degrees to what it's actually sensing from the cam sensor.

[iamtall77]

Kibo, you're probably correct about the timing issue. I never thought to do that. I just kept checking my timing with the logger plugged in. What about the knock "non-issue" and the low voltage readings from the 02? This is only the second car I've tried to tune beyond stock and my other vehicle (92 AWD) seemed to read the 02v where everyone says they should be. (around .92v) It seems to read about the same at idle and the ECU doesn't seem to adjust for more fuel to raise the 02 voltage beyond .68-.72v at cruise or low boost.

I'd like to pull fuel to see if it knocks, but I'm too chicken to risk engine damage. Should I pull fuel around 3-4k where it holds 10psi and see if I can get some knock? It shouldn't do too much damage if it runs really lean there will it? Then again, isn't cylinder pressure highest around those RPMs? I'm not in a hurry to get this figured out since the car runs fine, but I'd really like to just get it out of the way so I can have some fun.