Favorite brake pads

[matthewdesigns]

What is everyone using on their cars, and why? I'm about to run out of front pad, and want to make a wise choice when replacing them.

My car is my DD. But, I like to drive it hard from time to time in the mountains, and may take it out for a track date or two this year. So I'm ultimately looking for recommendations for a pad that has good street manners (like good cold grip), but also exhibits a relatively small amount of fade after repeated hard braking when I'm up in the hills.

I've searched a bunch for this, and have found many brands/models that work on our cars (Axxis, Hawk, Porterfield, etc). There's not really a definitive thread here that answers this question, so can you guys and gals chime in?

Can you also speak to the idea of having my OEM-like rears, which look barely used, on the car, with an upgrade at the front? Would that create a high degree of imbalance in braking force, front to rear?

Thanks

[Zeppelin]

I'm running Hawk HPS front/rear with OEM rotors and SS lines. The braking is much improved over stock. I'd recommend them to anyone!

If anybody wants to take my car for a spin to try them out, let me know.

[hickeye]

I've only had experience with Porterfield R4-S pads, but I really like them. I had them on a late 1g with "big" brakes and now on my 2g. Once they warm up a little (which doesn't take long at all) they grab much better than stock. I've never tried upgraded fronts with stock rears, but I'd just assume upgrading all four, given that the extra cost for the rears would only be about $70.

[Cloud]

I have had great luck with the axxis ultimates with ss lines and the 2g 'big' brakes. They have seen some amazing abuse and hold up surprisingly well for how undersized the brakes are. Get some good fluid too, that is usually the first part of the system to fade. I use ate super blue because its cheap and still hangs very closely to the much more expensive fluids.

[matthewdesigns]

Thanks for the responses so far, guys. Kinda mirrors what I've read elsewhere...lots of good choices out there.

I read on Tuners that someone ran stock rear pads and upgraded fronts with no issues. I may do that at first, then go new all around if it feels funny.

Keep 'em coming!

[Paul]

Can you also speak to the idea of having my OEM-like rears, which look barely used, on the car, with an upgrade at the front? Would that create a high degree of imbalance in braking force, front to rear?

Thanks

Stoptech propaganda.

There is no do it all pad. I will even throw in that maybe you should run a higher cf pad in summer, but go close to stock in winter.

Super Blue is 1/2 the price of the more exotic fluids and works just fine. I never had a problem with it. Get the "Gold" since technically the "Blue" is not DOT legal.

Porterfield R4S pads will be a little hard on rotors and dust a lot. Don't expect any street pad to work and/or hold up on the track. I remember once at SC a guy went through a set of EBC green pads in one day.

Paul

[matthewdesigns]

Stoptech propaganda.

Kinda lost me on that one. Is that in reference to the use of different pads front and rear? I have not read anything on the Stoptech site. I would guess they are a little biased about what to buy :rolleyes:

There is no do it all pad. I will even throw in that maybe you should run a higher cf pad in summer, but go close to stock in winter.

Is that because an OEM pad is a little softer, and will perform better in colder temps?

Super Blue is 1/2 the price of the more exotic fluids and works just fine. I never had a problem with it. Get the "Gold" since technically the "Blue" is not DOT legal.

Thanks for the thought on fluids. I had not even considered changing that out. I just had the entire system flushed...I shoulda thought of this a few weeks ago.

Porterfield R4S pads will be a little hard on rotors and dust a lot. Don't expect any street pad to work and/or hold up on the track. I remember once at SC a guy went through a set of EBC green pads in one day.

Paul

I figured that anything I get will be a compromise. I'll just have to deal with a little rotor wear to get anything more aggressive. I'm OK with that.

Thanks!

[Outlaw]

I put metal master pads in my car, they are horrible.

[prophecymiller]

I put metal master pads in my car, they are horrible.

What are the reasons just for info.?

I have Hawk pads just on the front with stock brakes on the rear and ss brake lines-there are no problems with this setup from what I can tell and this is on a DD. The braking is better than stock, but they do dust on the front a bit more than stock pads.

[Mirage]

Back when Second Creek was open, I tested a few different pad options as well.

I used:

Metal Masters
Akebono ACT pads (Ceramic)
Porterfield R4-E's
Some Generic Checker economy semi metallic brand.

Ranked in heat tolerance from Best to worst:
Porterfield
Akebono
Generic Checkers
Metal Masters.

Ranked for cold stopping Performance from Best to worst:

Akebono
Metal Masters
Generic Checkers
Porterfields

Around Second Creek, the Metal Masters lasted about 3 1/2 laps before the pad material started migrating to the wheels.

Generic Checkers were about the same, but had better high heat bite up until they melted.

Akebonos lasted about 5 laps before they started to go south.

Porterfields. Well. Need I say more? You could probably get them hot enough to where they'll melt the seals out of the caliper before they give up grip. I got them to where the rotor was glowing and it was still stopping the car with authority.

Marcus

[Outlaw]

I brake boost a lot, and the metal masters are pretty much toast after a hard brake boost and then the following stop from a high speed. They need time to cool down after one run which is pathetic.

[matthewdesigns]

Thanks for the track comparison, Marcus. While I won't be on the track that much, it's good to know how things stack up.

I would guess that the Porterfield R4-S would have a bit more cold bite as they are a street compound, not the endurance racing compound you were using.

[Kibo]

In contrast, I'm happy with the Metal Masters on my 1G DD. They're not particularly grippy (lack "bite") compared to more aggressive pads, but they're low dust and get the job done for this vehicle at a cheap price point. If you're more performance-minded (as I presume Tyler is), look elsewhere. Like Paul said, there is no "do it all" pad.

Personally, I have a strong dislike for EBC Greens. Do a search on the forum and you'll find my reasons in another thread.

I've only used Porterfield R4-S pads in the rear, and that doesn't have a large effect on the braking feel or performance IMO. All of my other experience is with race compound pads that you either wouldn't want to run on the street IMO (R4-Es) or aren't available for OEM calipers (I have Wilwood 6-pots).

[Kibo]

Porterfields. Well. Need I say more? You could probably get them hot enough to where they'll melt the seals out of the caliper before they give up grip. I got them to where the rotor was glowing and it was still stopping the car with authority.

I really liked the R4-E pads for track use with the stock calipers. I left them on for a little while after the "free week" at SC one year, and they sure dusted a lot and ate up the rotors quickly on the street. Still stopped well, though.

[matthewdesigns]

I really liked the R4-E pads for track use with the stock calipers. I left them on for a little while after the "free week" at SC one year, and they sure dusted a lot and ate up the rotors quickly on the street. Still stopped well, though.

What length of time is "quickly"? A couple of months, a year?

[Kibo]

What length of time is "quickly"? A couple of months, a year?

Quickly = noticeable wear within two weeks of street driving with a one-hour commute on back roads twice a day. By "noticeable wear", I mean that the character of the rotor's surface had changed to a rough surface as opposed to the smooth shiny surface you get when a pad/rotor are working at the right temperature. And the dust was obviously coming from somewhere--most likely the rotor, but that's just an assumption.

[Mirage]

The rotors will last approximately two pad changes granted you drove them daily.

They seem to last about the same as your typical generic pads by my experience (which is admittedly limited on the street).

The pad wear seemed to be about on par with others IMO. Rotor wear however. It's accelerated quite a bit.

*EDIT* Erik Nailed it. It's been years since I did this and details are a little fuzzy.

Marcus

[dsm_gsx97]

The Porterfield R4-S were great pads for me daily driving. Great bite, but were extremely dusty (used with PowerSlot rotors). I used this setup on the front and rears of the '97 for a couple years. Actually they're still on it come to think of it.

[matthewdesigns]

Lots of good info here...thanks. I appreciate the informed opinions, rather than a generic "they sucked".

I'm leaning towards the Porterfield R4-S at this point, just on the front for now, as it seems that I'd be OK with my stock rears in combination with those.


The rotors will last approximately two pad changes granted you drove them daily.

That's good to know. Not terribly worried about that amount of wear, given that my stopping power will be increased. I'll trade better braking for that expense.

[Paul]

Kinda lost me on that one. Is that in reference to the use of different pads front and rear? I have not read anything on the Stoptech site. I would guess they are a little biased about what to buy :rolleyes:



Stoptech makes a big deal about "balanced" brake systems.

I wouldn't run Porterfield R4'S at Pueblo.

Paul

[Kibo]

That's good to know. Not terribly worried about that amount of wear, given that my stopping power will be increased. I'll trade better braking for that expense.

Not sure you caught this, Matt, but Marcus and I were talking about a different pad (R4-E) than the R4-S you're considering. The R4-S is designed for street use, but the R4-E is intended for track use ('E' for 'Endurance', I believe).

[matthewdesigns]

Stoptech makes a big deal about "balanced" brake systems.

I wouldn't run Porterfield R4'S at Pueblo.

Paul

Did you say that thinking it was a track car? If no, please elaborate. And is that R4-S's, or R4's (generally), and why?

This car is first and foremost a DD. Might see a couple of days at the track at most. I do like a day up in the mountains once in a while, too.


Not sure you caught this, Matt, but Marcus and I were talking about a different pad (R4-E) than the R4-S you're considering. The R4-S is designed for street use, but the R4-E is intended for track use ('E' for 'Endurance', I believe).

Yeah, I caught that. I figured that tidbit into my reasoning. I figure they need a higher consistent operating temp to be at peak efficiency since they are for endurance racing, and the "S"/street compound are a lower operating temp pad. I'm guessing that the S will have better cold performance, and won't tear up the rotors quite as quickly as the E's.

[Paul]

Did you say that thinking it was a track car? If no, please elaborate. And is that R4-S's, or R4's (generally), and why?

This car is first and foremost a DD. Might see a couple of days at the track at most. I do like a day up in the mountains once in a while, too.



I have been told that Pueblo is a very fast track. Possible chance to hit top speed in your car. I would not want to bring my car down from 120 - 160 mph with R4-S pads. They are designed for the street. The R4-E pads are very harsh and will eat a rotor in about a month of daily driving. I have never used R4 pads, but I have heard that they are a good track pad too.

It doesn't take long to change the pads. If you go to Pueblo spend the money for a good track pad.

Paul

[matthewdesigns]

Two sets of pads. Check.

Looks like R4-S on the street, and some R4-E pads for track time.

Thanks for all the input guys.

[Paul]

When you change back and forth you may notice a decline in braking unless you bed in the pads. I would always bed in the race pads before going to the track. Going back to street pads would only take a day or so of driving to get things "right".

Have fun.

Paul

[matthewdesigns]

I've never been instructed on how to, or told to with new brakes. I found these bedding instructions...sound OK?

1. From a speed of about 60mph, gently apply the brakes a couple of times to bring them up to operating temperature. This prevents you from thermally shocking the rotors and pads in the next steps.
2. Make a series of eight near-stops from 60 to about 10 mph. Do it HARD by pressing on the brakes firmly, just shy of locking the wheels or engaging ABS. At the end of each slowdown, immediately accelerate back to 60mph. DO NOT COME TO A COMPLETE STOP! If you stop completely and sit for any length of time with your foot on the brake pedal, you will imprint pad material onto the hot rotors, which can lead to vibration, uneven braking, and could even ruin the rotors. With some less aggressive street pads, you may need fewer than eight near-stops. If your pedal gets soft or you feel the brakes going away, then you've done enough. Proceed to the next step.
3. The brakes may begin to fade slightly after the 7th or 8th near-stop. This fade will stabilize, but not completely go away until the brakes have fully cooled. A strong smell from the brakes, and even smoke, is normal.
4. After the 8th near-stop, accelerate back up to speed and cruise for a while, using the brakes as little as possible. The brakes need 5 to 10 minutes to cool down. Try not to become trapped in traffic or come to a complete stop while the brakes are still hot.
5. If club race pads, such as Hawk Blue, are being used, add four near-stops from 80 to 10mph. If full race pads, such as Performance Friction 01 or Hawk HT 14, are being used, add four near-stops from 100 to 10 mph.
6. After the break-in cycle, there should be a slight blue tint and a light gray film on the rotor face. The blue tint tells you the rotor has reached break-in temperature and the gray film is pad material starting to transfer onto the rotor face. This is what you are looking for. The best braking occurs when there is an even layer of of pad material deposited across the face of the rotors. This minimizes squealing, increases braking torque, and maximizes pad and rotor life.
7. After the first break in cycle shown above, the brakes may still not be fully broken in. A second bed-in cycle, AFTER the brakes have cooled down fully from the first cycle, may be necessary before the brakes really start to perform well. This is especially true if you have installed new pads on old rotors. If you've just installed a big brake kit, the pedal travel may not feel as firm as you expected. After the second cycle, the pedal will become noticeably firmer. If necessary, bleed the brakes to improve pedal firmness.

[Paul]

That should do.

Paul

[matthewdesigns]

Thanks for all the advice!

[BlueVelocity]

I'll add a bit of my experiences as well. I actually tried some metal masters back in the day out at 2nd Creek. Needless to say they were great for normal driving. On the track was a different story all together. By lap 3 they went from being a week old down to nothing but metal. Once they exceed their maximum operating temp, things went south in a big hurry. They turned into peanut butter. I knew something was up when double footing and pumping didn't add any more braking force so I came off the track and they were gone. A new set, gone in 3 laps. Since then I've tried a set of the Pagid's with the big brake kit. (AP 6 pistons) They were ok and I would say average overall for a true track pad. The initial bite wasn't there, they took a lap to get up to temp and they just didn't have the friction I wanted for late braking. (over $500 a set too) It took me all of a 2 day Time Trials event to destroy them. Towards the end of day 2, the pad material started to seperate from the backing plate in large chuncks. I went back to the old standby, the Porterfield R4-E's. Yep, noisy when cold, dusty as you can get, a little harse on the rotor, but the results are worth it. Usually a spirited braking session got them up to temp and then the braking force is just plain good. Pedal feel is solid, and never faded, even by lap 20 they were still just a good as they were on lap 2 even with glowing orange rotors. A wonderful pad and the price point is acceptable too.

Erron S.

[Paul]

Since then I've tried a set of the Pagid's with the big brake kit. (AP 6 pistons) They were ok and I would say average overall for a true track pad. The initial bite wasn't there, they took a lap to get up to temp and they just didn't have the friction I wanted for late braking.

Erron S.

I mentioned this to Doug about the Stoptech brakes. The initial bite of the R4-E's is what he was used to also. I think the brakes are fine but their own propaganda to "balance" the system has led them to a very low CF brake pad.

For the stock system it is very hard to beat the Porterfield R4-E pads. The nice thing is they are reasonably priced and you can get them through a reputable seller in RRE.

Paul

[Kibo]

For the stock system it is very hard to beat the Porterfield R4-E pads. The nice thing is they are reasonably priced and you can get them through a reputable seller in RRE.

Assuming we're talking about track pads here, I couldn't agree more. It's well worth having a set around for track days IMO.

[v413nc3]

Before I comment keep in mind I am the LAST person you want to take DD advice from. My idea of a daily is just shy of a track car. I hate creature comforts and generally have to talk myself into heating, let alone a radio or anything else. So harshness is not really in my mindset. Having said that...

Get different pads for the track. No one should be thinking about tracking street pads. I've been there at SC and it scared the hell out of me to the point where I was driving like a grandma in a 74 olds. For track pads I'm a big fan of Performance Friction. Any pad you have in mind for tracking you should have an idea of what your car weighs, what speeds you're looking at for deceleration data and get an idea of what kind of Mu plot the pad should have. Everyone drives differently and picking a right pad for the way you brake can make a huge difference. PFC has a track pad for all types of driving styles. The 93 works really well for me, but someone like Tyler would probably prefer the 97 for the type of brake boosting he is doing. In the end we can all give you advice but unless you actually drop the coin on a few sets and get out there and give them a go there's really no way of knowing. Just be prepared to eat through some rotors while you are doing your testing. Going to a road course isn't going to be cheap, but it will be some of the best money you'll spend for enjoyment factor.

[D Walker]

Performance Friction 01's or 97's are my choice for pretty much every high-performance application out there. Proven time and again to outlast and outperform most other racing pads. I have tested them back to back on Stock Class to Pro cars against Pagid, Hawk, EBC, etc and the PFC's just work. They cost a pretty penny, but they are worth it in pad life. I just put a set of 97's on the R32 GTR and they are absolutely raving about how great they work. FWIW I also had much greater rotor life out of PFC/ Cryoed rotors on the Stock Class 944 Turbo S than all other combinations.

[v413nc3]

Pretty penny is no joke. You should see the price tag on the PFC 93's I use for the XT6's. It doesn't help that the pad is over an inch thick.

[Kibo]

Kind of funny that you brought up PFC's, as I recently picked up a set for the WJ. I have no idea what compound they are, just "ceramic". However, I talked to Van of Vanco (the equivalent of Todd at TCE, only for Jeeps) and he suggested the EBC Yellow pads instead, so I have a set on their way. The EBC yellows cost ~50% more than the PFC pads, so I'm pretty sure the PFCs are one of the "lesser" compounds.

I'm not really looking for a "performance" pad (it's a friggin' SUV after all!), but WJ brakes are notoriously underspec'd for such a large/heavy vehicle and I want all the help I can get. Paul, you'll like that the Yellows are supposed to have an average friction coefficient of 0.5 or greater, even when cold.

I find it funny that OEM 12" rotors on the Jeep are undersized, but 12" rotors on a DSM are a nice upgrade. :p

[D Walker]

The PFC pads for the R32 GTR (same as for a Z32 300ZX) were $215 for the fronts.

[Kibo]

Cripes! I thought $186 for Poly H pads was bad!

[v413nc3]

Yeah those XT6's are $360.

[Kibo]

Holy crap, dude. :eek:

[Mirage]

Yeah those XT6's are $360.


Heh. And about 3 times the brake pad material...

Marcus

[sbiggi]

What do you guys suggest for drag racing or maybe a highway run?

My current pads get ****ty at Bandimere slowing down from ~125mph and I'll be going faster this year.

I was thinking of using the Porterfield R4-S, or possibly the E's.

[matthewdesigns]

I'll give you an idea of how the R4-S's feel in the next couple of days, as I'll be doing my best to give them a work-out. Probably not from 125+, but I'll put a hurtin' on them and let you know how they feel.

From what I read in this thread, and from other sources online, the E's are going to require a constant use and high temps to retain their best braking capabilities, from auto-x and enduro racing and the like. So, for an occasional braking event from "cold", such as a few runs down the track one day, my guess would be a high performance street compound, like the R4-S.

[v413nc3]

Not quite sure how AutoX is considered "constant use".

Seth, I would start with an examination of your brake system before choosing pads. Is everything in top working order, are they bled, etc. Making sure that the factory system is working in top shape will go miles to helping you slow down as needed.

[sbiggi]

Not quite sure how AutoX is considered "constant use".

Seth, I would start with an examination of your brake system before choosing pads. Is everything in top working order, are they bled, etc. Making sure that the factory system is working in top shape will go miles to helping you slow down as needed.

Well, its in good shape... ish.
Fluid is the Valvoline Synthetic stuff.

The pads I'm running are what ever the best Checkers sells.... so they are crap. The rotors need to be replaced as they have lots of tiny heat fractures.

R4-S's should do the job right?

[Cloud]

The R4-S are fine, and probably significant overkill if you are just slowing once. The valvoline synthetic stuff isn't bad but I only run it in my lesser vehicles that I don't tend to beat on. I like ate superblue because it's cheap as hell and has a great wet boiling point so on a street car if it doesn't get changed religiously it's still fine. As far as pads go the axxis ultimate pads are really cheap for how nice they are. They are not a track pad but will take a pair of 150-0 stops without failing.

[v413nc3]

I agree with Brian, switch out to some better fluid. The R4-S is probably a good choice for you Seth. Especially since I get the feeling that stopping at the drag strip won't be the only time you abuse them.

[matthewdesigns]

Not quite sure how AutoX is considered "constant use".


Yeah, not as constant as a track event like NASA runs, but more so than once at the end of a 1/4 mile. But, probably not enough to keep the pads hot enough on second thought.

First impressions of the R4-S's are that they are a huge step up, as compared to the parts store crap that was on there before. I bedded them in last night, and they did not fade after seven nearly consecutive 60-10mph applications. I know that's not a huge amount of abuse, but my old brakes would have gone squishy halfway through that. They actually got stickier as I worked them in, locking the brakes with less effort with each successive application. I'm going to take a run in the hills this weekend (weather permitting) and give them a real workout.

Again, thanks for everyone who chimed in on my quest for better pads.