Bought a Water to Air IC kit

[thiazole]

I know a lot of people have been eyeballing the Silicone Intakes water to air intercooler set ups - they seem to be too inexpensive to be true. Well, I've decided that I'll be the guinea pig for it since I have an intake temp gauge. I'll know if it cools well or not. I believe the kit is good enough to use with any water to air intercooler and their intercooler is a small piece of the price, so it isn't a complete gamble. If it doesn't keep up, then I can always buy a different water to air intercooler and plug it into the system. If it does work, then I have a feeling they are going to sell more of these units soon. This kit comes with a nice sized (but only 1" thick) water radiator to cool the water down, a fan for the radiator, a 500gph pump with an expected 1500+hr life (which if I decide to have it running all the time is equivalent to 45,000 miles averaging 30mph - I might hook it up to a boost switch if it is loud and annoying) and the intercooler which is supposed to handle up to 600hp and only have a 0.1psi pressure drop (which is the REAL reason I want to go this route instead of a FMIC). Water to air intercoolers themselves are very small which makes mounting them very easy. For the short term, I'm planning on locating it in the stock sidemount location. After I have some time to plan new tubing, I'll probably create a very short route intake piping that goes as straight as possible from the turbo to the throttle body - you can technically mount a water to air IC anywhere since it doesn't need fresh air. Anyway, even if my car was running right now, it is pointless to test something like this in this weather, but I'll definitely post a review this spring or summer - as soon as we get a nice hot day. Also, once I get my car running again, I'll do a simple 20psi 3rd gear pull, swap out the old set up for this one and do it again and include the power difference in my review (I expect more power from this system since the air flow should be dramatically improved). For more discussion of the concept and how efficient this kind of intercooler is, see our previous thread here (http://www.codsm.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2317). I even included the math for a very poorly set up system to show how it still performs quite well.

[matthewdesigns]

Nice! I'm very interested in this setup, and will be interested in hearing about the real-world results you see. Is this a 1/4 mile car, or auto-x, DD, all of the above? Which kit did you get, the 600 or 1200hp one?

Good luck!

[Gimpin]

Somthing that might be worth looking in to is thermal protecting your resivor so that it doesnt get heat soaked from the heat in your engine bay. Maybe somthing like this http://groups.msn.com/MileHighTalon/2airbox.msnw ... This way your heat exchanger wouldn't have to work as hard

[thiazole]

Nice! I'm very interested in this setup, and will be interested in hearing about the real-world results you see. Is this a 1/4 mile car, or auto-x, DD, all of the above? Which kit did you get, the 600 or 1200hp one?

Good luck!
I got the 600hp. I thought about the 1200 (no such thing as "overcooling", right), but the width of that intercooler is 16". It all of the sudden becomes much more difficult to place it inline - when it gets that big you have to find a large open space to mount it.

Somthing that might be worth looking in to is thermal protecting your resivor so that it doesnt get heat soaked from the heat in your engine bay. Maybe somthing like this http://groups.msn.com/MileHighTalon/2airbox.msnw ... This way your heat exchanger wouldn't have to work as hard
Yeah, I've been thinking about that too. I'm not sure how much effect the engine compartment temps would have on it - technically it should be built to transfer heat inside where the intake charge is with minimal transfer on the outside, but it is hard to say exactly how much effect there could be. I think there would be a flow advantage to having it "right" after the air exits the turbo, but that would also be a very hot location with the air from the radiator blowing on it. I would also have to worry about the intake tubing post intercooler getting heat soaked from the engine heat and heating the air back up some before it gets to the throttle body. On the other hand, having the intercooler right before the throttle body might be one of the cooler locations and would insure that freshly cooled air is entering the engine, but on the other hand you have to pump high volume high temp air through a large portion of tubing which might hurt air flow.

[matthewdesigns]

Did you get the same- or opposite-side inlet/outlet IC?

The new ZR1 uses a L/A IC, and it's nestled between the heads. Might look into how/if it's thermally protected (doesn't look like it is from the cutaway photo below).

Here's a photo of the IC: http://www.leftlanenews.com/wp-content/plugins/iimage-gallery.php?idpost=5673&idg=1&idi=45

Here's a shot of the IC as it's fitted to the motor in a really cool cutaway mockup: http://www.autoblog.com/photos/2008-detroit-corvette-zr1-ls9-engine-cutaway/583819/

[ricehunter]

Well when I was looking at using a LAIC I was contemplating relocating the battery to back, removing the charcoal canister and placing a LAIC box there, with a little bit of outside ventilation.

The only problem that I thought of with that is the charge-pipe length from the LAIC to the TB, you'd either need to mount a GMAF & BOV there or have a really long recirculation tube. The other option would be placing it before the intercooler, but I know that wouldn't be efficient.

I guess the other option would be place the box directly under the turbo intake where the LICP should be.

[Gimpin]

Actually I think you misunderstoon me.... I was talking about an additional reservoir... for example the liquid would flow from the reservoir to the heat exchange to the IC then back to the reservoir. In that relation it makes no difference where you put the reservoir in relation to the turbo. There might be some relevance as to where you put the IC in relation to the turbo, that I am not sure of. But my point would be to shield the reservoir from engine heat so that you dont heat soak it before it enters the heat exchange.

[Gimpin]

I think I would keep the LAIC in bumper where the side mount used to be if it will fit

[thiazole]

I got opposite side inlet/outlet. I was thinking that while the same side might work well for a few locations, most of the time it would require sharp bends in the tubing to make it work. Having opposite side would allow you to basically cut a chunk out of any tubing and "splice in" the LAIC. That also keeps the air going the same direction - no crazy u-turns in the flow.

It should fit fine where the side mount used to be and that is at least what I am planning for the short term. What I don't like about that is that because I have a 16g, the intake tubing starts out high, drops down low to get to the bottom of the intercooler, then goes back up high, then a long trip from the far corner of the car to the throttle body. I'm thinking why not go straight from the turbo over to where the BOV is now, mount the intercooler somewhere on the strut tower which would exit about 15" from the throttle body. The BOV would need a longer tube, but other than that, we are talking about going from ~80-90" of zig zagging tubing making a total of about 330* in turns all the way down to about 40" making about 180* in turns.

[ricehunter]

What are the dimentions of the LAIC? I may take a look at my bay and see if I can fid the best layout...

[matthewdesigns]

I'm thinking why not go straight from the turbo over to where the BOV is now, mount the intercooler somewhere on the strut tower which would exit about 15" from the throttle body. The BOV would need a longer tube, but other than that, we are talking about going from ~80-90" of zig zagging tubing making a total of about 330* in turns all the way down to about 40" making about 180* in turns.

That sounds like the way to go, but I'm looking at a photo of my engine bay right now, and it looks TIGHT! Have you relocated the battery or the fuse box?

Are you on the stock MAS? If you are on GM MAF, could you mount the IC in the stock MAS/fliter location and put a filter directly on the turbo inlet? Maybe a same-side inlet/outlet core would work for that location better.

Where are you going to mount the water radiator?

[thiazole]

What are the dimentions of the LAIC? I may take a look at my bay and see if I can fid the best layout...

It is supposed to be 12.25X12X4.5, but because the end tanks are staggered and not square, the face is more like a 12.25X10 parallelagram: http://www.siliconeintakes.com/images/product/intercooler_12x12.25x4.5OSio_specsheet.gif

[thiazole]

That sounds like the way to go, but I'm looking at a photo of my engine bay right now, and it looks TIGHT! Have you relocated the battery or the fuse box?

Are you on the stock MAS? If you are on GM MAF, could you mount the IC in the stock MAS/fliter location and put a filter directly on the turbo inlet? Maybe a same-side inlet/outlet core would work for that location better.

Where are you going to mount the water radiator?

I haven't relocated anything. Relocating the fuse box would probably be the most helpful, but that sounds like a major PITA. I'm also still on the stock MAS in the stock location. I might be dreaming - I have everything torn apart right now, so it probably looks like I have more room than I really do.
As far as the radiator goes, I'll probably just mount it where a person would mount a FMIC - it is so thin, I think it would be an easy job (unlike a FMIC). I thought about mounting it in the back of the car, but if it gets too hot, it might act like a heater which would especially suck in the summer.

Unfortunately I'm not very good at this kind of stuff - I get it done and it works the way I want it to, but it never looks very good.

[matthewdesigns]

I'd definitely like to see some install pics, when you get to that point. Thanks for all the info thus far.

[thiazole]

Oh yeah, it is also important that the water outlet is elevated above the water inlet so any gas in the system rises to the top and exits the intercooler. If you have them level or if the outlet is lower than the inlet, then air will get trapped inside and it will significantly screw up the efficiency.

Also (off topic, but more about the science), I was reading some literature on LAICs and it was saying the the thermal conductivity between water and aluminum is 14X greater than air and aluminum. So, even though the core of this intercooler is only 6"X12.5"X4.5" = 337.5 cubic inches, it could have the same heat soaking resistance of an air to air with with a core size of 4725 cubic inches. I'm not sure how that would calculate as far as cooling ability - I guess that would depend on the surface area inside the core vs an air to air.

[Cloud]

Also (off topic, but more about the science), I was reading some literature on LAICs and it was saying the the thermal conductivity between water and aluminum is 14X greater than air and aluminum. So, even though the core of this intercooler is only 6"X12.5"X4.5" = 337.5 cubic inches, it could have the same heat soaking resistance of an air to air with with a core size of 4725 cubic inches. I'm not sure how that would calculate as far as cooling ability - I guess that would depend on the surface area inside the core vs an air to air.

Ok, this is an odd statement. The conductivity of water is about 14x greater than that of air. That doesn't necessarily mean the convective heat transfer between water and aluminum is 14x greater than air which is the important part. Also I am not sure how you are judging heat soaking based on core volume, especially with it being smaller? You should definitely have greater resistance to heat soaking but that comes from the giant reservoir of water and water's specific heat, not from the thermal conductivity of water or aluminum.

[XakEp]

I've always wanted to put a huge LAIC in, and instead of another radiator, I want to guy a water fountain and put the cooler in the car and just freeze the water. Much easier.

[thiazole]

Ok, this is an odd statement. The conductivity of water is about 14x greater than that of air. That doesn't necessarily mean the convective heat transfer between water and aluminum is 14x greater than air which is the important part. Also I am not sure how you are judging heat soaking based on core volume, especially with it being smaller? You should definitely have greater resistance to heat soaking but that comes from the giant reservoir of water and water's specific heat, not from the thermal conductivity of water or aluminum.


It would seem like it, but think about it this way - a LAIC has the whole world's atmosphere as a reservoir but it can still be heat soaked. Also, in general, you need much more air traveling through the face of the intercooler than intake CFM to prevent heat soak - I'm pretty sure my upgraded side mount is getting heat soaked at the end of the track when I moving over 100mph - I'm sure the air traveling through it is enormous, but the heat transfer just isn't occuring fast enough so the aluminum is getting hotter and hotter relative to the temperature of the atmosphere. That would be very difficult (14X more difficult based on equal size if I'm not mistaken) to do with a LAIC. It could still happen - you could have a marine application where the entire lake is your reservoir and produce so much heat that you just couldn't remove heat fast enough (think of source of heat like a nuclear power plant that circulates water from a pond to cool the reactors). In the end, I think rate of water flow is important, but surface area touching the water is even more important. If you took that same nuclear reactor and reduced the size of the cooler dramatically, you could push water through at an infinite rate and it might effectively cool the molecules right around the water jet, but it would never be able to cool the whole reaction efficiently enough to prevent a meltdown - even if the water itself wasn't getting heat soaked. That is what I'm saying. If you threw a red hot chunk of aluminum in the lake, it would cool 14X faster than if you suspended it in the air. I'm assuming I interpreted the 14X thing correctly. I'll double check when I go home for lunch. They did mention that copper would transfer heat to water even faster than aluminum, so I'm thinking that I interpreted it right.

[thiazole]

I must have interpreted it correctly because I was just looking up the thermal conductivity of water and air and water is 0.67W/m K and "air" is 0.026 W/m K. That means water is actually 25.7X more thermally conductive than air, so they must have been talking about heat transfer and not thermal conductivity.

[thiazole]

After doing a little research on the topic, I think I know where the discrepancy lies. Aluminum has a significanly higher thermal conductivity than either water or air, but it isn't infinite. We are looking at it as how fast can aluminum transfer heat to water vs air, but what we really should be calculating is how fast can air transfer heat to aluminum followed by aluminum tranferring heat to water. If aluminum had infinite thermal conductivity, then I think water would transfer heat 25.7X faster than air (or 23X as some other sources site), but since aluminum has a finite thermal conductivity it throws a monkey wrench into the equation. I'm not really sure how to calculate heat transfer between 3 different surfaces, but logic would only dictate that the middle surface (aluminum in this case) would change the rate of heat transfer compared to if there were no middle surface.

[thiazole]

Alright, here you go: on page 66 of Corky Bell's "Maximum Boost" (ch 5 between fig. 5-31 and 5-32 in case you have a different publishing date or a hardback copy of the book) states:
"Although complex, the water-based IC enjoys the one terrific advantage of the far greater (14X) heat transfer coefficient between water and aluminum than between air and aluminum." pg 67: "Although aluminum is by far the most convenient material to use in any IC application, copper core elements, should the situation allow them, can yield a greater heat transfer rate."

[matthewdesigns]

I was trying to wrap my head around this last night, but my brain was not functioning properly after 14 hours at work :p

Seems to me that you would also need to take into consideration the thickness of the aluminum within the core. If it were paper thin, then the heat transference would probably be more like that of air directly to water. If it were thicker, then you have a greater distance for the heat to travel, as well as a greater mass to potentially become heatsoaked. So, based on the efficiency (or not) of the water radiator, you could potentially have 2 heat soaked masses, the water and the aluminum. That being said, I can't see you running so much boost/heat that you'd overload the cooling capacity of the water, unless you are going to road-race the car. Quarter-mile runs and the occasional run-in of the street probably would barely register as long as the radiator is effective. This will become way too much math for me after this point.

It'd be really nice if the A/C wasn't such a huge drain. Utilizing the cooling capacity of that system would be sweet, and you'd be way below ambient temps.

BTW, which upgraded SM have you been using? I have a Dejon Big SM for my 2g and I'm beginning to think that I'll want something a bit more effective than that by this summer. Which is why I'm so interested :)

[thiazole]

It is an ADFX (not sure if you remember them or not - they are the morons who went out of business because they had too many orders to handle). I think it is pretty similar to the Dejon or the Hahn sidemount. I've noticed as I've gotten down into the low 13's that I see knock at the end of the track. I got the water injection to try to compensate for it. My intake temp gauge showed that the water injection pulled about 50* out of the intake temps. Unfortunately, that does little good if your intercooler gets heatsoaked and the post intercooler air temp jumps from 150* to 300*; 300* minus 50* is still way too hot.

BTW, I think you could use some kind of electric cooler that only has a moderate draw from the electrical system that would get the water nice and cold in between run without eating up much hp. You'd want the water to stop flowing while it is cooling back down. They make those 12V car refrigerators that you can buy at Walmart for like $50 - you could remove the condensor and put it in the water tank. I'm not sure how much good that would do, but it might be an interesting experiment.

[ricehunter]

And this is why Road Race has a "Hacker/tweeker" section lol

The only thing I didn't like about the SI/FB kist is the water pump, as its made for cold water, but I don't know of anything that would be a suitable replacement... If you could refirdgerate the water I wonder if there would be any reason at all to have the radiator... I was also playing with the idea of having the tank in cab...

[Gimpin]

isnt that basicly an RV watter pump? if so than it would be able to handle 100*ish temps cuase it pumps water out of a water heater. If the water in your laic is getting above that you have some problems

[ricehunter]

The Pump

The pump is the key to producing such an economical kit. Other pumps which are purpose built for water to air intercooler systems cost up to ten times as much!

These Rule 401FC pumps are designed for livewell/baitwell/bilge applications but their high flow rate and low cost makes them ideal for use as water to air intercooler pumps.
Must be mounted at the low point in the system - these pumps push water but they will not pull it.
Must be mounted after the water in your system is cooled (after radiator or icebox) - excessive heat may result in premature pump failure.
Pump operates on 12V-14V DC.
Flow rate: 500 GPH.
Designed for use with room temperature water, however we have tested these pumps long term with 130° antifreeze/coolant with excellent results.
Designed with a minimum 1500-hour service life in mind, these pumps come with a 3 year warranty direct from Rule/ITT. However, use with high temperature water and/or antifreeze/coolant may void this warranty.

Pump is brand new and will be shipped in retail packaging.

I'd say use like a fuel pump, but the 255 is equil to about 67GPH, so I don't think it would function...

[matthewdesigns]

Didn't think of the mini fridge. That's a pretty good idea.

Could probably pick one up used pretty cheap. And If you had a separate, smaller, insulated reservoir ahead of the main one, you could perhaps put the condenser in that so there is less water to cool (almost like how an undercounter hot water heater works...but in reverse :) ). Then, you could keep the water flowing, and still have it cooled down. That would eliminate having to wire in a "smart" thermostat that knows when you are in boost, needing the pump to be on when it "thinks" it should be off to cool the water.

I wonder what shape the condensers are. If they were small tubular things, like our PS cooling loops, you could make the cooling chamber out of pvc. Then you could easily make the cooling chamber double walled, with the inner one being perforated, so that some of the cooled water stays in there, helping to keep the temps down/more stable.

That seems like a lot of work now that I reread it lol.

[Cloud]

14x is probably quoted directly from corky bell who is not exactly the best source, though he is the most widely respected 'introductory' teacher on the subject. I have read several of his books cover to cover several times and they contain mostly generalities rather than mathematical predictions or empirical observations.

There are a LOT of effects going on here but I will try to respond only to the most important. In either intercooling setup the atmosphere is NEVER the reservoir, not for air/air, not air/water, it is not a reservoir in any shape or form because the mass changes constantly and it is not a closed system. An air/air system has the mass of the aluminum in the intercooler as a reservoir and that is pretty much it. A air/water system has the advantage that water transfers heat rapidly enough away from the aluminum that the aluminum isnt the primary reservoir anymore and the water becomes the reservoir. The aluminum is only a small impedance to heat transfer at this point if it is sized properly, which isn't that hard to do. (as an aside the conductivity of aluminum and the thickness of it is directly related to this, but the big concepts here assume that in an air/water system this is a small effect vs a large effect in air/air).

If you think the 14x thing to be accurate try and use an air/water cooler that is 1/14th the volume of an appropriately sized air/air core. It might work out ok but I think charge temps will be up by quite a bit. That's like maybe 50 ci of core volume. That is excessively small for just about any application.

[ricehunter]

Shot in the dark, but what if you used a second intercooler in reverse principal... when you run the water through it and refridigerated air in a closed loop system.

I think we're getting a little carried away with this... lol :D

Or the use of a close liquid nirtogen cooler...

[thiazole]

If you think the 14x thing to be accurate try and use an air/water cooler that is 1/14th the volume of an appropriately sized air/air core. It might work out ok but I think charge temps will be up by quite a bit. That's like maybe 50 ci of core volume. That is excessively small for just about any application.
I still think the 14X rate is still plausible, but you have to keep in mind that is only the heat transfer from the aluminum to the water - not from the intake charge to the aluminum. I think that normally, because the intake charge is so hot and compressed (more molecular collisions to transfer heat) that the rate of heat transfer from the intake charge into the intercooler is pretty fast, but not nearly as fast as the water is capable of pulling the heat back out of the intercooler. As a result, even though an intercooler that would be 1/14th the size of a workable air/air IC wouldn't heatsoak the aluminum, it also wouldn't be able to absorb very much heat out of the intake charge because that heat transfer isn't rapid enough for such a small IC.

[thiazole]

Shot in the dark, but what if you used a second intercooler in reverse principal... when you run the water through it and refridigerated air in a closed loop system.

I think we're getting a little carried away with this... lol :D

Or the use of a close liquid nirtogen cooler...

I'd be worried about using a liquid N2 sprayer on the water radiator because you'll end up causing ice chunks that would clog the radiator up. If you used a metal water tank, though, you could have a secondary bath that surrounds the tank (but no liquid exchange between them) that you could fill with ethanol and ice which has a temperature of about -4*F. As long as you have some antifreeze in you water tank, it wouldn't freeze and that would be the most efficient way of obtaining significantly >100% IC efficiency. If you wanted to really go crazy, you could use dry ice and isopropanol in the secondary bath which will cool to -108*F (you'd have to add everything right before you raced to prevent completely freezing the system and you'd want a lot of antifreeze in the bath). That would probably be a bad idea, though, because once the warm water came back to the tank it would transfer heat to the dry ice bath causing a huge eruption of CO2 and you'd probably get CO2 poisoning (yes, inhaling very much CO2 even in the presence of plenty of O2 will do some damage because it forms carbonic acid in your blood stream which causes acidosis). Also, with the ethanol/ice bath you could safely seal the tank after adding it, but with the IPA/dry ice bath, if you sealed it you'd blow yourself up.

Edit: I guess I didn't consider the fact that pure ethanol is kind of expensive and what would you do with it after the ice melted? If you used a gallon of pure EtOH, that would be enough to get about 50 people moderately drunk, so it would be hard to consume it as well. Perhaps you could use an ice/brine bath which gets down to about 14*F.

[ricehunter]

Actually on the drive home I was thinking... What if you were to use a LAIC platform, but run LN2through instead of water... I was reading a little bit about it and I know that you have to have X pressure to keep it in liquid form. If you made it a one way, where the pressure keeps the liquid in the cool in IC and have some kind of pressure release/purge that could vent out of the hood somewhere... yea, sorry had a long drive home.

Something like a Nitrogen Cooled Heat Exchanger... and I'm not sure of the dangers of physics of this. Like how much pressure the intercooler, lines & tank would have to hold.

[thiazole]

It is kind of difficult to explain without getting deep into thermodynamics and entropy, but liquid nitrogen is only cold when it isn't in a sealed system. If it were sealed, it would create enormous pressure (1600psi at room temp, more if you heated it). Once it is under this pressure, it is no longer cold. Basically, when a liquid evaporates, it robs energy from its surroundings and gets cold (ie, wet your hand and stick it in front of a fan). Because the boiling point of liquid N2 is very cold at atmospheric pressure, it evaporates super fast causing it to get very cold until it drops to or below its boiling point. In other words, if you had a high pressure system with liquid N2 circulating through it, it would act like water but because N2 has a very low heat capacity, it would actually work much worse. In fact, the heat capacity of liquid N2 is so low that you can actually (I've done this, so no one call BS) stick your hand in it and hold it there for several seconds without getting very cold. It actually boils around your hand and creates a layer of gaseous N2 that insulates your hand for a period of time and the cooling process is much slower than you'd think. Because of gravity and the lower density of gaseous N2, as long as you are dipping your hand from above, you are safe. If you pour liquid nitrogen into your hand, though, gravity will pull it against your skin and you will have dead black skin every where the liquid N2 touched you the next day (I've done that before too). Anyway, I've used liquid nitrogen to cool chemical reactions before and it takes a ton of it because it boils off so fast. Dry ice/isopropanol baths are far superior, although they don't get quite as cold.

[thiazole]

So after communicating with ricehunter via PM, he actually has a pretty damn good idea. This would only work at the track, but you could take a setup like an intercooler cryo sprayer, but instead hook the line directly to the water inlet of the LAIC. The outlet would just be vented to the ground. You could hook a N2O solenoid to it and have it activated by a boost or throttle switch and you would have an intercooler that is capable of mindboggling efficiencies. I think liquid CO2 is the same temperature as dry ice, ie below -100*F. If you pushed enough CO2 through it, it would be conceivable for the intake charge to drop below 0*F. I really wonder how one of our cars would run if you could cool the intake charge that much. I'll have to figure out what the heat of vaporization of liquid CO2 is and see how much it would take to accomplish this. I'll repost when I figure it out.

[thiazole]

Alright, here is the math. First of all, I'm calculating how much liquid CO2 you'd need to cool the intake charge of a car flowing 40lbs/min and running through the 1/4 mile at 12 seconds all the way down to 0*F for the entire 1/4 mile:

Heat capacity of air: 1kJ/kg*K
Latent heat of vaporization of CO2: 571 kJ/kg http://www.uigi.com/carbondioxide.html

A car flowing 40lbs air/min would flow 8lbs of air in a 12 second 1/4mile

8lbs of air at 300*F dropping to 0*F would be the same as 3.6 kg air dropping 167K (kelvin)

3.6 kg air would require the removal of 3.6kJ to drop 1K so 3.6X167 = 602kJ to drop 167K

602/571 = 1.05kg

Conclusion (for people who want to skip the math and get to the point): it would take just over 1kg or about 2.3lbs of liquid CO2 to cool the intake charge of a car flowing 40lbs/min and producing 300*F air after the turbo to 0*F for an entire 1/4 mile. That actually isn't too bad. Liquid CO2 is not very expensive (cheaper than nitrous oxide), but you'd probably want to use a 20lb tank.

[prophecymiller]

If you used alcohol injection after you cooled the charge down to 0 degrees, would it then cool it even further? Is there a point that the intake charge could be over-cooled?

[thiazole]

I would think there would be a point where the air coming into the engine is so cold, there is a risk of cracking something (think of what would happen if you overheated your engine and then dumped gallons of ice water on it). Because air itself doesn't have very much heat capacity (ie, it would have trouble cooling the metal enough to crack something), I would expect that threshold to be very cold - like -100*F or something like that (keep in mind N/A engines don't have anthing warming the air up much and the cold air doesn't damage them when it is 0* outside).

As far as alcohol injection goes, as hard is it would be to believe, I think it would cool the charge down even more, but you would probably want to run straight alcohol because rapidly moving 0* air has a strange ability to freeze water almost instantaneously - ie, you might frost up you throttle body and cause it to stick open or something if you used water. Anyway, entropy is a strange beast and even though the air is very cold, entropy still wants a liquid to be a gas, so you will still get atomization of the methanol which would still have a cooling effect. It wouldn't be as efficient as it is when the intake charge is hot, but I bet it would cool a 0* charge to -10* or maybe even -20*.
One thing this question made me realize is that a liquid CO2/air intercooler would be it's own worst enemy in a humid environment - lucky it is generally dry here. If the air was very humid, I suspect the intercooler would frost up from the humidity in the intake charge until it clogged and became a huge flow restriction. You probably couldn't do it if it had been raining recently. If you lifted to shift, though, and the CO2 had a throttle or boost switch, then I would think the hot air that runs through between the shifts would defrost it quite a bit (keep in mind, everything before the intercooler is still blazing hot).

[thiazole]

Actually, the more I think about it, the lower limit of how cold you can get air before anything bad happens is beyond what we are capable of doing - how do I know this? Because people inject massive amounts of nitrous oxide straight into their engines without harm (at least without harm from the cold). If I remember right, liquid nitrous oxide is something like -80*F, so if that doesn't crack something, then we wouldn't crack anything either.

Also, to preemptively strike against the point that I know is coming soon, the difference between a liquid CO2/air intercooler and something like one of these kits (http://www.alldayperformance.com.au/prod908.htm) is that with plain sprayer on an air/air IC, you still have tons of ambient air blasting the intercooler from the outside warming it up and undoing alot of the cooling the CO2 is doing. Using a LAIC as the platform, you are actually using liquid CO2 and only liquid CO2 to cool the charge and therefore could get much, much colder.

[burnett03]

I would think there would be a point where the air coming into the engine is so cold, there is a risk of cracking something ).

I don't see this happening..

[thiazole]

I just got the kit in the mail today. It looks like a pretty nice intercooler, I have to say. Nice welding and it feels like while the core is aluminum, that the shell is quality stainless steal. It feels very strong. The water inlet and outlet are nice and big too - I guess they need to be to accomodate 500 gallons/hr. Both of those factors would go a long way if I decide to experiment with liquid CO2.

[burnett03]

Can you take pictures of the entire kit?

[thiazole]

Can you take pictures of the entire kit?

I can try.

The Whole Kit (Dog not included):
http://home.comcast.net/~thiazole/KitAndDog.JPG

Up close intercooler:
http://home.comcast.net/~thiazole/Intercooler.JPG

Side by side with the stock sidemount:
http://home.comcast.net/~thiazole/SideBySide.JPG

Looking down the water entrance next to the stock side mount:
http://home.comcast.net/~thiazole/SideBySide2.jpg

[ricehunter]

The Whole Kit (Dog not included):

Dang it I was going to see if they could substitute a Chihuahuas or something small like that.

I might see if I can hook up one of the inline CO2 inline with the FMIC setup I will have, that way I can use it for 1/4 days but have the FMIC for road course or daily driving. I'd just have to wonder if I should do it per or post FMIC.

[thiazole]

Dang it I was going to see if they could substitute a Chihuahuas or something small like that.

I might see if I can hook up one of the inline CO2 inline with the FMIC setup I will have, that way I can use it for 1/4 days but have the FMIC for road course or daily driving. I'd just have to wonder if I should do it per or post FMIC.

Well, since these tend to have such a small pressure drop, adding a shorter one that still has a good thickness in line after an FMIC could be used for something like that. I noticed that these guys (http://www.bellintercoolers.com/pages/LAMain.html) literally have thousands of size combinations - a person could get something that is only 2.5" long (air travel distance) but has a 6X6" face that the air travels into and that might work well in that kind of setup (and such a small IC is only about $150).

[ricehunter]

Actually I was just thinking if you do it pre-intercooler you shouldn't have to worry about it "Over cooling" but from what was discussed it doesn't seem like that would be a problem. I guess you could make the vent to one of the CO2 "sprayer" kits that you posted earlier.

[ricehunter]

I took a look at the DEI website and it looks like the CryO2 system has intake cooling bulbs that can be welded into your post intercooler piping, I guess that could keep the water in the air from freezing inside a bar-plate design. Either way I'd like to try both.

[matthewdesigns]

What are you going to use as a reservoir? I don't see one pictured. Or is the idea, generally, that there's enough liquid in the system, considering the volume of the radiator, that an additional reservoir is not needed? Personally, I'd want to have at least a small container somewhere along the way, for icing it down.

[burnett03]

Im curious what liquid you are going to use?

[thiazole]

I'm looking for a steel reservoir - something in the 2-3 gallon range. I will put this inside a bigger plastic secondary container that I can put ice in when at the track - the ice would be used to cool the steel reservoir and therefore the water in it to below ambient temps when racing. I'll probably just syphon the water out of the cooling container when the ice melts.

I'll probably run 10% coolant, 90% water in the summer and 50/50 in the winter (don't really need that good of heat transfer in the winter). If I try the CO2 thing, I'll probably take the same advice I gave ricehunter and buy a smaller secondary LAIC that will easily fit inline after the main one. That way, I wouldn't have the hassle of having to switch hoses and stuff.

[thiazole]

So I've decided the best secondary container for the ice would be a simple cooler (http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=5623411). I'd really like to use a nice aluminum tank (http://www.speedwaymotors.com/p/494,419_Aluminum-Tanks.html)like this for the actual water tank, but they aren't cheap. I'll keep looking.

What I would do is cut a rectangle out of the spare tire cover and stick the cooler in as far as it would go (hopefully only the lid would be showing) and mount it to someing in that space. I would then mount the aluminum tank inside this cooler. I could drill holes near the top of the cooler for the water lines to go out.

[Overkill]

Not to rain on anyone's parade, but if this is for the track your not allowed to be dripping anything from your vehicle when racing. This means that the condensation from such a system accumulating and dripping on the track while staging would not be allowed.

[thiazole]

That is why an insulated cooler would work well (to minimize condensation). Besides, if it did drip condensation, it would be on the washer fluid tank, not outside the car.

[thiazole]

This picture is from an ad in the DSMLink forums (and probably lots of other places too). It is a barrel style LAIC, but is essentially close to what I was imagining how I would eventually locate mine. I realize that he has relocated both his battery and his fuse box, but I will have a little extra room since his IC is 6" thick and mine is only 4.5". Also, I'll have to offset it so the inlet is lower than the outlet tube by probably 45* or so air doesn't accumulate inside (actually, I think the way the water inlet/outlet in this are set up that the top half of this intercooler would fill with air). By having to offset it, only a small portion of the intercooler will even be high enough to interfere with the fuse box, and that part should be closer to the battery.

http://girlintheblackcar.com/images/ForSale/intercoolerinstalled.jpg

[matthewdesigns]

Wow, that's a ghetto fabulous engine bay right there. That thing needs a serious tuck and wipe. But it's definitely cold air right at the TB, no doubt about that (if the water lines ever get hooked up :D ).

I took another look at my engine bay after seeing this, and it just looks really tight with the stock MAS/intake pipe. I see this guy's on a GMMAF. But not having the IC in hand, I can only armchair assemble the thing :)

Could you throw up a photo of the IC in your engine bay, just for a size reference?

[thiazole]

I'll have to admit, my engine compartment is equally ghetto. It is all torn apart right now, so I'm sure it will fit just fine, but I'll have to wait until I get it all put back together and see how it looks...

[matthewdesigns]

Any updates?

[thiazole]

Nope, not yet. Hopefully in a couple weeks. In the meantime, here are some more pictures of ways people have set them up:

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/attachments/bolt-tech/67593d1157389623-ics-air-air-air-water-merged-7-7-intercooler-liquid-airtowater-003.jpg

http://www.lotmeet.com/pictures/talon/engine_ic.jpg

http://filebox.vt.edu/users/chlamber/Water%20Intercooler/Engine%20Bay.JPG

You kind of see a trend...

[ricehunter]

You kind of see a trend...

Huh? Where? lol jk

I like that first setup, but I had the assumption that the BOV should be after the IC.

[thiazole]

If you recirculate it you'd want it after the IC, but otherwise I wouldn't think it would matter much. In fact, I'd almost think before the IC would be "slightly" better - that way you haven't wasted cooling down air that is just getting blown out anyway. Maybe there is some other reason people do it after the IC that I haven't thought about, though.

[prophecymiller]

From what I have read, you want the bov as close to the throttle body as possible- I would think you would want it that way so the bov is behind the wave created from closing of the throttle plate as soon as possible...where as if you had it next to the compressor, it would be venting out air that is in front of the backward-traveling pressure and not helping to dissipate...rather than if the bov is next to the tb, the wave passes by immediately and is being vented from behind to help slow down and dissipate. I could be way off, but that is what I am thinking.

[thiazole]

I just can't think of why that would matter much. Consider the point of a BOV is to prevent damage to the compressor - why not have it closer to where the pressure would do the damage? I would say it is to keep air moving the same direction, but my BOV vents so fast that by the time I'm hitting the next gear and needing air to flow the right direction again, the BOV is completely done venting and I'm in the thottle to get the rpms up (forcing air to flow the right direction) for the next gear.

If it is best to have it near the TB, though, I don't think these guys are really any further away than most people are - they just have 12" of intercooler between the BOV and TB instead of 12" of pipe.

[thiazole]

I posted this question about the location of the BOV on the DSMLink forum since LAICs are pretty popular there and no one had any ill comments about placing the BOV before the intercooler (as long as you aren't recirculating it).

[prophecymiller]

I will have to look into it a little more, but I wouldn't think there will be any ill effects- as long as there is a cbv somewhere in the system, you are probably ok. I was thinking just from what I read that having it close to the tb, maximizes the time to dissipate the pressure wave from reaching back to the compressor wheel.

[Cloud]

I would imagine the less of your intake tract that you expose to the high pressure wave the better. I'm not sure what the peak pressures get too on a blow off but I can imagine that not exposing thin walled aluminum heat exchangers and couplers and stuff to it can only help their longevity. I highly doubt that a decent setup will have any problem with it but the sooner it vents I assume the less strain it puts on things at least in theory.

[thiazole]

I think 50psi anyway. I can see what people are saying about the shock wave when you close there throttle, I'm sure there forms a big pressure gradient where at the thottle body it could be under 10 or 20 psi more pressure than at the compressor. I'm thinking if you had shorter tubing (like I'm going to have) that there wouldn't be nearly as much gradient though. I think the gradient would proportional with tubing length and inversely proportional with tubing diameter (or more accurately cross section tubing area).