new maf loaction

[magikgsx]

im pretty happy with the results of this. i relocated my battery to the rear cargo area, and then rerouted my intake tube so the maf pointed toward the rear of the engine bay anticipatting better intake air flow. my thinking was to get the maf as far away from the engine as possible to get a better cold air intake result. the results is that i felt a stronger throttle response, and the car seems to have picked up a little more power. i dont have a way to measure the air temp but seems to work work well. i plan to wrap the intake pipe and the upper icp to keep the charge even cooler in the summer. i used the spectre tubes to build the intake pipes. i also plan on fabing a filter box in conjunction with a vented portion of the hood. i also am going to extend the filter so it is more toward the firewall, because with the battery removed more fresh air can be pulled in from the filter.

[prophecymiller]

That's a lot of free space! Did you put your battery in a battery box that is ventilated?

[burnett03]

Did you put your battery in a battery box that is ventilated?

I sure hope so.. But doubtful.

[magikgsx]

I sure hope so.. But doubtful.

yes! i did put the battery in a box that is vented. i also put a 30 amp in line fuse close to the battery to prevent a melt down incase something goes wrong. ive seen people doing it wrong that resulted in a fire! im not going to be a victim of that type s#!+.

[iamtall77]

I'm going to have to disagree with your relocation. The whole engine bay is hot. The original location of the MAF got fresh air from the headlight area. Now you have hot air going into the pipe. If you really like that location, vent some air from the cowl area into the box you plan to build. The cowl will give you a "ram air" effect at speed. Muscle car guys have been doing this forever. Aerodynamics force air into the cowl area at speed due to the windshield's deflection of air. Another option is to make a box in the stock location and take out the headlight. But whatever you want to do. It's your car.

[magikgsx]

the reason why i did it that way is that i noticed before i did all this, is that back toward that area the engine bay seemed to be a litlte bit cooler back there. i raised the hood in the back with spacers previously to get that cowl affect, which does cool the back area even more. ive built muscle cars in the past so i know about the cowl hoods, i always used them for my camaros. with the the light removed it wouldnt be very legal. imo: i think the stock location is a good one, but at the same time its kinda of restrictive due to the fact its sandwhiched inbetween the fender and the light. the only way to get air is to remove the light which isnt very good for a daily driver. with the air box plus the vented area of the hood i plan to fab my, relocation should be 100% better. i will post my sketches later, if my damn scanner will quit actin up.
plus its different.

[D Walker]

Interesting- but you do know your turbo car doesnt benefit much from any decrease in pre-turbo intake temperature?

[Wolf]

I sure hope so.. But doubtful.
Once again, why are you posting on something that has nothing to do with the original topic? That was no help..

Mike

[burnett03]

Mike

Glad to see you are back on the forums Mike.. I never got to thank you for that "great" motor you sold me with 100psi compression in all the cylinders and the locked up camshaft.. So thanks! ;)

But back on topic, i'm curious how you say the stock location is restrictive? Many many people have flowed over 50lbs a minute on the stock location.

[magikgsx]

Interesting- but you do know your turbo car doesnt benefit much from any decrease in pre-turbo intake temperature?


this is ariticle from ROADandTRACK.com about cold air and turbos. i thought this would come up on here so i did some research before i even posted this:D



FEB. 19, 2008




« previous More Technical Correspondence (article 11 of 72) next »


Technical Correspondence
A Blustery Day In The Intake Tract

Edited By Tom Wilson

April 2007 1 of 1
[ printer friendly ]
[ send to a friend ]




Email your question to Technical Correspondence today!

Intercooling And Cold Air Intakes
I have been given two different opinions on cold air intakes and intercoolers. Is there a difference between them, and do they really give significant performance advantages?

Jeremy Dalton

Ennismore, Ontario, Canada

“Cold air intake” is a term in common use today to denote tubing that allows the engine to breathe relatively cooler air from outside the engine compartment rather than the warmer underhood air. Most cars already have such an arrangement as stock, but aftermarket companies use the term to denote their systems with larger-diameter, smoother, less restrictive tubing, plus, typically, larger or less restrictive air filters. These aftermarket systems can aid power production if the stock system is restrictive. In practice, it's usually a deep-cleaning air filter or convoluted air tubing that chokes the stock engine, more so than hot underhood air.



Totally different from a cold air inlet, “intercooler” is a term universally misused by enthusiasts who bandy it about to denote any heat exchanger (radiator) that cools the discharge air from a supercharger or turbocharger. Actually, the general concept of cooling the compressed air in a forced-induction system is “charge cooling.” If a charge cooler is placed downstream (the arrangement on all stock turbo- or supercharged, charge-cooled automotive engines), then it is most properly called an “aftercooler.” If the system has two-stage blowers or turbos, the first unit blowing into the second, then the charge cooler between them is an intercooler, and the charge cooler after the second unit is an aftercooler. The actual coolers may well be identical mechanically, and take their name only from their placement in the system.

Charge cooling is highly effective, and becomes mandatory with approximately 8 psi of boost or more. Charge cooling is ineffective or detrimental on naturally aspirated (non-blown) engines because there is no excess heating of the intake air. Placing a charge cooler on an NA engine only gives a more restrictive air path, and may even pick up engine heat if poorly positioned.

And for the final bit of confusion, most forced-induction systems benefit from a well-engineered cold air intake as much as any other engine, if not more so, due to the higher volume of air being processed.

More Cold Thinking
Turbos love cool air, right? Years ago, hot-rodders packed ice around air intakes for this purpose. My Porsche Turbo has space within the air intake box for ice; the factory has even provided drain holes. Your opinion?

Bruce Janecek

Hinsdale, Illinois

Forget the years ago part, amateur drag racers are still packing ice around their intake manifolds across the country, even if it means warm beer later. And sure, anything that cools the intake charge makes it denser and thus more powerful. But are you sure Porsche put drain holes in your intake box to let melting ice water out? Guarding against errant rain and wash water is a more plausible explanation.

[D Walker]

Well good luck with that, but its pretty simple science to tell you that the pre-turbo air temp is not very important at all. The turbo is going to heat the pressurirized charge based more on its efficiency and boost level than anything else. The very small difference in intake temps your relocation would provide is likely to not be noticable at all.
IF you want good turbo information there are some good publications around, but I wouldnt especially look to road and track.

EDIT: I made 500whp on pump gas out of 2litres, and logging showed IAT's of 90-ish degs and holding. My intake filter was literally attached to the turbo inlet, no intake at all. Hood opened or closed, IATs were pretty much the same. NOW, the INTERCOOLER IS THE MOST IMPORTANT part of your charge air system, and you should very seriously pay attention to what works and what doesnt.

[burnett03]

Well good luck with that, but its pretty simple science to tell you that the pre-turbo air temp is not very important at all. The turbo is going to heat the pressurirized charge based more on its efficiency and boost level than anything else. The very small difference in intake temps your relocation would provide is likely to not be noticable at all.
IF you want good turbo information there are some good publications around, but I wouldnt especially look to road and track.

EDIT: I made 500whp on pump gas out of 2litres, and logging showed IAT's of 90-ish degs and holding. My intake filter was literally attached to the turbo inlet, no intake at all. Hood opened or closed, IATs were pretty much the same. NOw, the INTERCOOLER IS THE MOST IMPORTANT part of your charge air system, and you should very seriously pay attention to what works and what doesnt.

Agreed.. A good intercooler system will bring the temp down to ambient no matter what the inlet temp is since the turbo is going to compress and heat i anyways..

[magikgsx]

ive read a couple more articles on this, but too much info to post tight now. as far as i can tell with the relocation so far its seemed to have a little bit of affect on the car on the plus side. ill look more into though. i appreciate the cons of you reponses its making me get into my experiment even more. if i dont gain a more from this than i already have then at least it was fun trying something new, but for now its not over.:D

[Cloud]

I can't necessarily agree that inlet temperature has nothing to do with the manifold air temperature on a turbo car. I just did some stuff with excel and played with the numbers and got a 7 degree increase POST intercooler temperature using a 20 degree increase at the inlet of the turbo and using a 75% efficiency and normal ambient temp of cooling air at the intercooler. If you increase the temperature 20 degrees at the inlet of the turbo, you increase it 20 degrees at the outlet of the turbo which is the same as decreasing your compressor efficiency like 7%. I can't say that's insignificant, though the intercooler almost ALWAYS has more of an effect than anything else.

[magikgsx]

[QUOTE=Cloud;19452]I can't necessarily agree that inlet temperature has nothing to do with the manifold air temperature on a turbo car. I just did some stuff with excel and played with the numbers and got a 7 degree increase POST intercooler temperature using a 20 degree increase at the inlet of the turbo and using a 75% efficiency and normal ambient temp of cooling air at the intercooler. If you increase the temperature 20 degrees at the inlet of the turbo, you increase it 20 degrees at the outlet of the turbo which is the same as decreasing your compressor efficiency like 7%. I can't say that's insignificant, though the intercooler almost ALWAYS has more of an effect than anything else.[/

i agree with you on that. if by injesting hot air into the inlet of the turbo and it causes a decrease in effeciency, why wouldnt a colder air introduction into the turbo increase efficiency as a result. hot air intro results in hot air outro, so a cold air intro should result in a colder air outro even if just its just a by a little bit. a little more cold air is better than none at all.

if you had for example: a small radiaiator fan trying to cool a radiator by pulling cooler air thruogh it, it wouldnt be that efficient, now if you put a larger fan in its place that pulls more colder air through than the result would be much greater. basically the same thing im trying to accomplish with introducing a greater amount of of cold air going to the turbo.

[Overkill]

The only reason cold air intakes help performance is they allow for more timing with the denser air. If the IAT is before the turbo it will help and if the IAT is after the turbo its not going to make a damn bit of difference where your filter is located.

[Cloud]

The only reason cold air intakes help performance is they allow for more timing with the denser air. If the IAT is before the turbo it will help and if the IAT is after the turbo its not going to make a damn bit of difference where your filter is located.

Denser air = more mass flow = more power? This logic no worky in your opinion? More timing is good too, but even at the same timing you don't agree that a denser charge is not likely to make more power?

While I support the opinion that on a turbo vehicle the inlet location makes LESS of a difference than on a naturally aspirated car, I can't really find any reasonably scientific calculations that prove that it doesn't make any significant difference at all. My example had a manifold air temp variation from 125 to 132 degrees F, where if it were naturally aspirated it would be 75 to 95 degrees.

[Overkill]

I was speaking from an ECU standpoint in that the ECU would allow more timing with the denser air. I was not stating that if timing was the same with different air density the power would be the same. Your making more of my post that it was.

[prophecymiller]

I think as long as the intake air is cooler, no matter what, you will flow more air through the setup...even if your intercooler is 100% efficient. Now I am aware the turbo might compensate for this to a point with higher shaft speeds, but who would want higher shaft speed if you don't need it?

I've always heard that every degree of decrease in intake temp., there is a corresponding degree of decrease in exhaust temp.

[prophecymiller]

Your making more of my post that it was.

After reading it, you did make the assumption that a denser charge is going make the same power at the same timing...
If the IAT is before the turbo it will help and if the IAT is after the turbo its not going to make a damn bit of difference where your filter is located.

I couldn't resist being a stickler:p

[magikgsx]

ive read something like that also. i will try to get some kind of data on my mod as soon as i finnish it. but lioke i said previously, since i moved the batt and removed the batt tray, i have felt a difference since now im pulling air from the bottom of the car instead of just pulling hot air from just the upper engine bay.

[iamtall77]

I'd still like to see some real world data on this experiment. But with all things being equal, cooler air is going to make a difference. The question is, can you get cooler air from the new location? Of course "ram air" and cold air intakes work. It really depends on how you use it though. Look at the really fast turbo drag cars. They have turbos sticking out of the bumper and hood areas. I'm sure it's not there to make the turbo spool faster with longer manifold tubes.

[WANTED]

I too would like to see some real world data on this as well. Personally, I don't see this as making more power, but rather making the power sooner.

[magikgsx]

I too would like to see some real world data on this as well. Personally, I don't see this as making more power, but rather making the power sooner.

this could be true, id agree on that. wether it makes power or builds power faster i will be more than happy. once its done ill take it to a friend of mine and get some data, ill do one with my old set up and one with the completed set up, and post the results. this will propably happen in a couple of weeks.

[burnett03]

Sure thing man.. I mean selling me a motor with 90psi compression, and two locked up camshafts deserves a thanking right? Dsmlink forum has mentioned your name too, seems it's not the first time you have sold a bum motor to a local. Have you seen the dsmlink forum, or are you to poor to have dsmlink? Get out of that slum you call a house and a neighborhood and then come talk to me, k? Thanks.

[Wolf]

Sorry guys, that was supposed to be in pm. BTW, Brandon was given a short block in unknown condition, and he is the only person that will complain about free stuff. Kind of peculiar that the motors compression gets lower every time you bring it up.
Mike

[Zeppelin]

Que? :confused:

[Wolf]

I deleted the post as I hate to clutter up the forums with BS that does not have room here. I was going to post, sent a pm instead, but the post got posted anyway :S.
Mike