Helping with Timing Belt ASAP

[confusionisbad]

I just recently put some fp2 cams and new lifters in my car and the easy way didn't work out so I ended up pulling the timing belt off. When putting the timing belt on I made sure all marks lined up and then took the tension bolt out to put tension back on the belt. I then turned the crank over a few times to make sure all marks lined up again, but they didn't. So I did it over again and they all line up. I went and started my car, and it doesn't run the same. I have logged it with DSMlink and the timing is all over the place, so I am thinking the timing is off.

So I am wondering if anyone is available to help me get all the marks lined up so I can drive the car again, cause I don't want to drive it as is. I am in the centennial area. I don't have any number to be reached at due to the face I lost my phone in Vegas this past weekend. What luck I tell you.

PS: By help I am just asking for assistance get the marks line up, I will do all the rest of the work. Tomorrow would be ideal if at all possible.


Eddy
303-669-1853 (hopefully will be working tomorrow)
confusionisbad@gmail.com I can be reached at for the time being.

[Bryan Savage]

If all the marks lined up after turning the engine over enough times by hand (I usually do eight revolutions), there's no reason to think they will somehow slip out of line when you put everything back together. If they're lined up, there lined up.

If you're having running issues, it's either something you did, or your new parts. Maybe the car just runs so different with your new cams that you're just not used to it yet?

[rlarsen]

What Bryan said, if the mechanical timing is on, it's on. If your ignition timing is jumping around in DSMLink, that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with your mechanical timing.

You mentioned new lifters, it's possible if they aren't pumped down properly that you could be holding the valves open and either causing a ton of damage, or at least causing the car to run poorly.

[confusionisbad]

I put the car back together on Sat, left to Vegas on Sunday. So the car has been sitting since Sat evening. I started it this morning and its the same. So if the lifters were pumped up they should have went down by now. So yes its possible That I am not used to cams, prothane motor mount yet. I think the main difference is the difference in exhaust note. That is where the lumpiness is from. Maybe they are supposed to sound that way.

For the guys with cams, what are your vacuum readings on the boost gauge like? Will they be they less consistent with cams? Like mine tends to move around a bit now, not much bit. I am hoping that there wasn't a chance I bent any valves in the head.

Anything over 1500rpm the car runs very smooth though, if that makes any difference. I am going to pull the lower timing cover again today and reverify timing and do as Hal suggested and look for leaks and what not. I will do a compression test while I'm at it also. I guess that should tell me if any valves are bent. Any other suggestions? If someone would be able to come help me verify the timing and what not, I would be greatly appreciative. I will be off work at 3:30 and will be off all day tomorrow.

Eddy
I should have a working cell phone again by tonight. Hopefully.

[rlarsen]

Sounds to me you've just never driven/been around a cammed DSM. I think you're fine. Tune the thing.

[confusionisbad]

Here are pics of the timing marks. I didnt touch the balance shaft at all.
The oil one look off due to the angle, but its lined up as it should.

Cams:
http://spoolitup.com/timing/cams.jpg

Oil:
http://spoolitup.com/timing/oil.jpg

Crank:
http://spoolitup.com/timing/crank.jpg

[yokotabrat]

It's hard to tell with the picture of the cam gears zoomed in so much, but it looks like you might be a tooth off. Easiest way to tell where the marks should be is to take a ruler and set it so that it passes through the center of both cam gear bolts. The marks should line up where the ruler is. It looks like they'd be above the ruler if you were to do that now. Hope this helps.

[confusionisbad]

Thanks for pointing that out. That is exactly the case. Any easy way to get them lined up correctly?

[yokotabrat]

You might be able to get the belt loose enough by just compressing the hydraulic tensioner, putting a clip on the intake cam gear and timing belt so it doesn't slip on the intake cam, and then use an open end wrench to turn the exhaust cam one tooth in the clockwise direction. Then, uncompress the tensioner, rotate the engine 6 times, wait, and then check the marks again as well as check your belt tension again. That should do it.

[Bryan Savage]

Turn the cams so the dowel pins are at the 12 o'clock position. If you put the belt on with both cams in a relaxed state, you might be a tooth off on one of them. Usually, you have to hold the intake one counter-clockwise with a wrench while you put the belt on, because you'll be a tooth off if you don't.

If you are a tooth off, you must relieve the hydraulic tension to get slack in the belt. Do not attempt to force the belt to jump a tooth without doing this. I line the cam gears up first and put some of those cool black triangle clips on the gears to hold the belt in place. The belt will hold the gears in line, so you don't have to constantly hold the intake one with a wrench.

If you have any doubts, do it again. Follow the procedure in the service manual and for crap's sake, use the proper tools. Don't try and talk yourself into saying it's "good enough". Once you've got it, there will be no doubt.

Lumpy cams and prothanes are a really good way to rattle all kinds of things loose. At least you still have your balance shafts in!

The motor will idle really lumpy but be smooth above 1500 rpm, as you describe. This is normal. Your vacuum reading will most likely be much lower than you remember. This is normal too.

I've got 546/547 WebCams in with no balance shafts and the early (near solid) 1g Prothanes in. I pull around six mm of Hg at idle (when the car runs).

[confusionisbad]

Alright. Thanks Bryan. I misplaced my dsm cd somewhere. Maybe I should find !! And I am using the proper tool. I have the tensioner tool to take tension off the tensioner. I wouldnt even bother forcing the timing belt over the cam a tooth, that just doesnt sound like a smart thing to do to me. Ill redo the timing again and take pics before I button everything up this time.

[confusionisbad]

Okay. I got the timing all set I am pretty sure. Here are some new pics of the timing marks:

Cams:
http://spoolitup.com/timing/cams1.jpg

Oil:
http://spoolitup.com/timing/oil1.jpg

Crank:
http://spoolitup.com/timing/crank1.jpg

[rlarsen]

That's as good as I would get it, if I were doing a t-belt job (and I've done hundreds). I think you're good to go, you were only off a tooth (2 at the very most, but I doubt it) so you shouldn't have done any damage to the head.

Good luck.

[confusionisbad]

Okay, I got everything back together and started it up. It idles much better, but there is a slight vibration around 3k rpm's now. Do you think this may have something to do with the new prothane motor mount? or possibly something with teh balance shaft? I didnt touch the balance shaft belt. Also it was still on the jack stands if that makes any difference.

[dsm_gsx97]

You would notice this at idle extremely BTW, but you did make sure the oil sprocket shaft wasn't 180 degrees out right? The marks can line up and the shaft be 180 out. There is a small plug on the back of the block between the firewall and below the intake manifold bracket. You need to stick a screw driver in there (per manual) and make sure the oil sprocket shaft isn't 180 degrees out when putting it all back together (if you haven't removed the BS yet). I've done it once and it was extremely noticable when it idled.

[Bryan Savage]

Just to clarify Chris' post... the rear balance shaft is gear driven off the oil pump sprocket. There's an access port in the back of the block. When the oil pump sprocket timing mark is lined up, the balance shaft can be oriented one of two ways. The weighted section can be "up", or "down". Once you remove the bolt that plugs the access port in the back, you stick a screwdriver inside. If the screwdriver only goes in a few millimeters, it's because the balance shaft is "up" and in the wrong place. The access port goes right inside the block, and your screwdriver hits the balance shaft. Turn the oil pump sprocket one revolution, which will turn the rear balance shaft half of a revolution. The screwdriver should slide all the way in now. The weighted section of the shaft will be at the bottom and your screwdriver won't run into it anymore. Try turning the oil pump sprocket by hand while playing with the screwdriver and you'll see what I mean. That is what you want. Just leave the screwdriver in the hole until you get the belt on, but for poopy's sake, don't forget to take it out before cranking the motor!!! The screwdriver will prevent the weighted section of the balance shaft from being turned "up", so you can't accidentally put it together pi radians out. Don't forget to put that plug back in too, or else you'll have quite an oil leak.

The only purpose for the oil pump timing mark is that balance shaft. If you remove the shafts, you don't ever have to worry about that mark again.

A friend of mine did his own timing belt and he had that shaft 180 out. It was totally noticable, but it didn't rattle your teeth out. It was just "rough" all over. Not something you want.

You'll be an expert on timing belts by the time you're finished!

[dsm_gsx97]

Just to clarify Chris' post...

LOL, thanks. I did like 5 edits on the wording before I gave up on what I should call it.

[Bryan Savage]

LOL, thanks. I did like 5 edits on the wording before I gave up on what I should call it.
LOL, it took me like eight edits to make sure I got everything!