Whitish Smoke at Idle

[confusionisbad]

Lately I have noticed my car is smoking a little at idle. As far as I can tell its white, I don't notice any blueish hue/tint to it but may be wrong on that. While moving the smoke isn't noticeable. My oil looks just like it did when I put it in on Sunday, but I dyno'd my car. No mixing of coolant that I noticed. Only thing that I have noticed is sometimes if I build some boost while going and then stop at a light or idle it smokes a bit more and then goes back to as it was, but it doesn't smoke when it's actually building boost or letting off that I can notice. I checked for shaft play on the turbo and its the same it has been for the last 6 months or so.

I have tried to get some info on this and from what I have found it may be valve seals or possible bad head gasket. Anyone else have any other suggestions? Compression test was done about 1wk ago. Readings were ~160 across the board.

Thanks,
Eddy


PS: I forgot to mention I am having no cooling/over heating issues.

[AWD4g63t]

Well I wouldn't think that would have anything to do with valve guides but I could be wrong as I often am.:o

Without having any shaft play could some coolant still be getting past the seals in the turbo and burning? Maybe throttle body? If it were the head gasket I think it would be much worse than you described...

[dsm_gsx97]

Valve seals...not guides AWD4G63t. Close though ;)

What your describing Eddy, to me at least, would be the valve seals. Only at idle you get it which is how my 1G (yes I did have one of those at one time) was to the -T-. We replaced the valve seals and it was fixed (it was Kenny's car by then).

If you believe it's the head gasket you should look in your overflow for oil and pull your radiator cap and look for oil. You could also change your oil if your really worried and see if you have coolant in there.

Hard saying not knowing everything you got going, but best guess with what you've said sounds like the valve seals.

[Dane Becher]

Another vote for valve seals. My 1g does this even 3 turbos later:D It can be difficult to determine the color of the smoke and even a blueish smoke still looks pretty white to me. A search of the 1000q&a gives a good description of the different types of smoke.

Has it ever been overheated? Does it overheat easily? Besides oil/coolant mixing this is another cause/symptom of a leaky headgasket (which doesn't seem to be the case).

[confusionisbad]

Nope, doesnt have any cooling/overheating issues. . Rarely sees 210 degrees, unless I am on it hard. Turbo is an oil cooled CHRA, so no coolant runs through it. If it is the valve seals, how hard are they to replace and also does anyone have a part number? I dont have caps on here. I may just replace the head gakset anyways though. I have both a MLS head gasket and arp head studs in my room to go on.

Eddy

[rlarsen]

Valve seals...not guides AWD4G63t.

Technically, you're both right. Worn guides cause premature seal failure, and just replacing the seals is asking for them to wear out again in 10,000 miles.

[AWD4g63t]

Valve seals...not guides AWD4G63t. Close though ;)
My bad,

I was thinking of coolant when he said white smoke but it is rather difficult to tell when you're in the car. I too had this problem but it was because of a chipped valve. My car would start rough because of the oil that would leak into that cylinder.

[confusionisbad]

Can you explain your rough starting issue? I thought it was my injectors causing this, but maybe there is more too it. My car has ~104k on it.

[AWD4g63t]

Can you explain your rough starting issue? I thought it was my injectors causing this, but maybe there is more too it. My car has ~104k on it.
My starting issue?

It would start and then chug with very little throttle response. I would tap the throttle to try and keep it alive. It would eventually burn the oil off and run normally. (or so it seemed) It happend about every other time and I think the incline at which my car was parked had something to do with it, not sure though.

[confusionisbad]

Since the symptons seem to lean towards valve seals, and ryan suggested replacing the guides along with the seals at the same time. Would replacing the valves with bigger 1mm oversized ones be beneficial, or what else would be the recommendation with the head off? Also are the 1mm oversized valves worth even putting in? My goals are 400whp if that makes any difference and im trying to spend little to none to accomplish this from now on.

Here is a list of my current mods:

Apexi Power Intake, Dsmlink v2, Techedge 2A0 Wideband, Greddy Peak/Warn Boost and EGT Gauge, Greddy Type-S BOV, B&M Short Shifter, 1g Throttle body, Hahn 3" o2 eliminator downpipe w/ 3" test pipe , RSR cat back exhaust, Hallman Pro RX MBC, SCM61, FIC 850cc Injectors, Supra TT fuel pump, Spoolitup AFPR w/ gauge, XS Power FMIC w/ short route piping, ACT 2600 clutch, ACT lightened flywheel. FP2 cams, 3rd gen lifters

*not installed* ARP head studs, MLS Head gasket

Also, since I am not going to be able to get my block decked with putting in the head gasket, I am having second thoughts on using the MLS and just going with the a standard one. Do you think the stock head gasket / arp head stud combo will support 25-28psi? Or do you think its possible to get the deck of the block good enough while it still resides in the car do use the MLS HG?

Eddy

[dsm_gsx97]

For 400whp you should be fine with just replacing that stuff. No need to go 1mm over or get into any of those extras, IMO. Remember 1mm over is even more machine work so higher $$ to get the work done also. With the mods you have I'd think that 400whp is possible for sure (even for a FWD ;) )...Hopefully Ryan comments since he's better at this stuff.

[rlarsen]

Since the symptons seem to lean towards valve seals, and ryan suggested replacing the guides along with the seals at the same time. Would replacing the valves with bigger 1mm oversized ones be beneficial, or what else would be the recommendation with the head off? Also are the 1mm oversized valves worth even putting in? My goals are 400whp if that makes any difference and im trying to spend little to none to accomplish this from now on.
Are you going to be doing a valve job? How many miles are on the car? Do the stock valves need replacement? Do you have money that needs spending? :D

Basically, if you're doing a valve job, AND need new valves, definitely go 1mm over because it will cost exactly the same. Otherwise, you really won't see much benefit from just the 1mm over valves. You could stick with the stock valves and get a radius valve job and do a little bowl work and do much better than by just sticking 1mm oversized valves in.

HOWEVER, if it's a high-mileage head, you definitely need to test your valve springs if you're considering re-using the stock valves, as high-mileage valves in combination with weakened springs leads to bouncing, and that equals heads popping off valves. You'll want to test your stock springs regardless of what valves you use though, if you're keeping the springs.

Apexi Power Intake, Dsmlink v2, Techedge 2A0 Wideband, Greddy Peak/Warn Boost and EGT Gauge, Greddy Type-S BOV, B&M Short Shifter, 1g Throttle body, Hahn 3" o2 eliminator downpipe w/ 3" test pipe , RSR cat back exhaust, Hallman Pro RX MBC, SCM61, FIC 850cc Injectors, Supra TT fuel pump, Spoolitup AFPR w/ gauge, XS Power FMIC w/ short route piping, ACT 2600 clutch, ACT lightened flywheel. FP2 cams, 3rd gen lifters
Pretty good list, you've got the right tuning pieces in place. I don't see any problems putting down 400HP with this setup, properly tuned. Methanol injection would probably be nice if you're going to be doing it on pump, though.

Also, since I am not going to be able to get my block decked with putting in the head gasket, I am having second thoughts on using the MLS and just going with the a standard one. Do you think the stock head gasket / arp head stud combo will support 25-28psi? Or do you think its possible to get the deck of the block good enough while it still resides in the car do use the MLS HG?
If you're not getting the head or block decked, I probably wouldn't bother putting the MLS on. The advantages of an MLS come when it's paired with head and block surfaces with Ra's below 15, IMO. Also, I'd rather have the weak point in the system (provided it holds during your chosen normal operation parameters) be the HG rather than the rods or pistons.

I would feel fine using a factory gasket (get the head surface checked at least, and check the block as best you can...I just had a block come back from the machinist that actually had a TWISTED deck, he'd never seen that before) provided you get the surfaces properly cleaned up. Torque your head studs to 100ft-lbs. with the ARP lube and you're good to go.

Good luck.

Ryan

[confusionisbad]

Thats kinda funny you bring up the springs, Do you think with the addition of the fp2 cams could have possibly caused the valve seals to go due to older/tired springs? The head should have the same amount of miles as the engine, which is ~104k. Also another question for you, Is replacing the valve seals, guides, and springs something I could do?


What do you think about these?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/MANLEY-VALVE-SPRINGS-4G63-DSM-ECLIPSE-TALON-CROWLER_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33617QQihZ020QQ itemZ300006201377QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

[rlarsen]

Thats kinda funny you bring up the springs, Do you think with the addition of the fp2 cams could have possibly caused the valve seals to go due to older/tired springs?
Higher profile/ramp rate cams could accelerate guide wear, which would lead to trashed seals, yes. Doesn't mean that's the root cause though, the thing does have 104K on it.

Also another question for you, Is replacing the valve seals, guides, and springs something I could do?
Seals and springs, probably. Guides, not unless you have a Serdi ($35,000-$50,000, can be had for less used).

[confusionisbad]

Do you know the going price to get guides replaced?

[rlarsen]

Guides run from $50-$150, depending on the material and the quality, R&R and sizing is ~$110, and requires that you have the valves you're going to use.

[confusionisbad]

So I posted that link to some Manley springs, but they seem to lack retainers. Is it okay to use the stock retainers with aftermarket springs?

Sorry in advance for all the questions, but I do appreciate your help with this. I tend to ask alot of questions sometimes when I am trying to do something that I am not familiar with.

[rlarsen]

So I posted that link to some Manley springs, but they seem to lack retainers. Is it okay to use the stock retainers with aftermarket springs?

Provided the springs have the same inner and outer diameter...I'd be pretty surprised if they didn't come with retainers, but it's possible. You should consider picking up Ti retainers anyway, as their not that expensive and can reduce reciprocal loading on the valvetrain.

[confusionisbad]

Anyone use the Valves offered by engnbldr on ebay?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/MITSUBISHI-4G63-DROPIN-FIT-Stainless-Valves_W0QQitemZ130006688054QQihZ003QQcategoryZ336 21QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

I bought my 3g lifters from him, They worked perfectly and were drop in replacements. No more phantom knock for me.

[Paul]

Worn guides cause premature seal failure, and just replacing the seals is asking for them to wear out again in 10,000 miles.

Have seen this a lot Ryan? I (Jake, Steve, Erik A and I) replaced just the valve seals in my car when the cams went in probably 60,000 miles ago. I haven't look lately, but they seem to be doing well.

We left the head on and did Cams, springs, retainers, and valve seals. Car sure was more fun driving home.

Paul

[rlarsen]

Actually, the factory guides are pretty damn good. They can still be in spec at 120,000+ (although I would recommend to anyone they replace them when doing a head with that kind of mileage). Especially on your car, which has been well taken care of, I wouldn't worry at all. Whenever you get around to doing the head again (if ever), just replace the guides when you get the valve job done.

[Paul]

Whenever you get around to doing the head again (if ever), just replace the guides when you get the valve job done.

Thanks!

Paul