I'm back!

[Terrible Talon]

Hey guys - I'm back. After discovering that HPR has been open for a while I have a new focus on getting the "TerribleTalon" back on the track (It's only been about 14 months since Ryan got the motor put back together). Still have issues with phantom knock & oil use though. After I do some basic trouble shooting this weekend I'll be posting some questions in the hope that the accumulated expertise out there might be able to help me out. Seriously thinking about E85 so I'll be asking about that too. The car is still very fast but it looks like some of you have gotten exponentially faster since the good old days at 2 Creek. Erron may be out of reach but I'm aiming to give the rest of you a good run for the money!

Doug Hayne (1:14.xx at 2 Creek)

[rlarsen]

Hey Doug good to see you back on here.

Any indication of where the oil is being consumed? I don't remember you mentioning that problem back awhile ago when we were first troubleshooting the car right after we got it back on the road. I do remember the phantom knock issues, I'm sorry to hear you still haven't found the source of that.

If you get to the bottom of it and it turns out it was something related to the build, let me know. I may not be in "business" any more but I still have a pretty good warranty. ;)

[Overkill]

Get a chip from Bert for your phantom knock issue and it shouldn't be too hard to track down were the oil consuption is occuring if you have a catch can installed.

Welcome back!

[rlarsen]

Overfilling of catch cans was one of the reasons he wanted the engine rebuilt in the first place.

[Overkill]

So it would appear that its a blowby issue or possibly an issue with the head as only the block was rebuilt correct? Any baffles missing from the valve cover?

[Terrible Talon]

Hey Ryan! Your motor runs hard. Re. phantom knock I'm pretty sure it's just that. Ran 10 gal. of 104 with the same knock readings as 91. Replacing the knock sensor reduced it somewhat at higher rpm so I think that may be a non-issue. I'm using Dsmlink @ 3500 rpm/35% throttle and have not backed off that recently to see where I'm at with knock below those settings. Just want to be careful and avoid any chance of repeating the last failure. Also want to be sure the W.I. is failsafe. Re. oil use, don't know where it's going. No oil smoke from exhaust. Catch can is catching nothing but it appears that I'm getting some oil through the intake b/c I sometimes get a bit of oil at the blow-off valve. Looks like I'm using about 1 qt./8-900 miles. (2,500 miles on the motor). I went to Mobil 1 at 1200 miles. I'll do a compression check this weekend. More later.

Doug

[dsm_gsx97]

Good to see you back Doug. You've come up a few times in conversation where we were wondering what happened to you. Glad to see you ready to rip it up again.

[Terrible Talon]

No baffles missing from VC as far as I know. If compression check shows anything abnormal I'll do a leakdown test. May do that anyway if I can get the equipment I need. Anyone near Boulder have that stuff?

[Terrible Talon]

Good to see you back Doug. You've come up a few times in conversation where we were wondering what happened to you. Glad to see you ready to rip it up again.

Hey Chris! Good to hear from you.

[dsm_gsx97]

Hey Ryan! Your motor runs hard. Re. phantom knock I'm pretty sure it's just that. Ran 10 gal. of 104 with the same knock readings as 91. Replacing the knock sensor reduced it somewhat at higher rpm so I think that may be a non-issue. I'm using Dsmlink @ 3500 rpm/35% throttle and have not backed off that recently to see where I'm at with knock below those settings. Just want to be careful and avoid any chance of repeating the last failure. Also want to be sure the W.I. is failsafe. Re. oil use, don't know where it's going. No oil smoke from exhaust. Catch can is catching nothing but it appears that I'm getting some oil through the intake b/c I sometimes get a bit of oil at the blow-off valve. Looks like I'm using about 1 qt./8-900 miles. (2,500 miles on the motor). I went to Mobil 1 at 1200 miles. I'll do a compression check this weekend. More later.

Doug

If you're running that FP3052 still then I'd say maybe you're running too high of oil pressure for those seals and pushing oil that way. As long as you're feeding the turbo off the head and have a filter in there to limit pressure you should be good, but I figured I'd mention it incase that is the culprit.

[rlarsen]

That's a good point. When Doug brought the car to me it had insanely high oil pressure due to the lack of squirters and an unported oil pump housing. We re-added the squirters (using Evo squirters for their improved clearance due to the 2.3L) and IIRC the oil pressure was lowered significantly. I can no longer remember if I ported the oil pump pressure relief area or not.

I was actually going to suggest turbo myself due to the fact that it doesn't seem to be losing it from the exhaust or collecting in the catch can.

Hell, on my car, 1qt. every 1,000 miles is considered normal, but it's definitely not normal on a 4G. The clearances on that motor aren't exactly what I call "snug" but that shouldn't affect oil consumption to the degree you're describing.

[Terrible Talon]

I have the FP oil feed line with the restriction to limit flow to ball bearing turbo. It also has a filter so I think it's safe to assume I'm not getting oil through the seals there. Oil pressure is higher than it was on the original (2.0, not 2.3) engine as shown on the stock gauge but not that much higher. With the old motor the needle was near the middle or slightly left of middle at cruise. Now it's right of middle but well below the right limit mark. I don't think you ported the pump housing Ryan. The only way I can account for the oil that I see at the BOV is the possiblity of a fine mist going straight thru the catch can(s) (I actually have two in the line - a GReddy and the little baffled one that Paul used to use). Or I'm still getting some oil residue from the intercooler. You will remember, Ryan, that you poured about a quart out of it when you took things apart originally. Funny though, I was seeing less and less oil at the BOV over time. In fact I had not seen any at all for a couple of months until the other day. That was just a small amount and I had only done one 3rd gear pull since the last time I drove the car and I always look for oil under the hood after every drive.

This is really baffling! I'm going through about as much oil as I was with the previous 2.3 before the ring broke (excluding track time) but back then I was filling up the catch can during the course of a day at the track and I would find most of the oil I was losing in normal driving in the can. With the new motor I've drained about 4 drops from the GReddy can since I got the car back. Where's it going?! I would think I would see plenty of oil smoke in the rear view mirror at WOT if oil was being ingested by the engine. Back in 'the day', my Dad's XK-E went through a quart about every 1K miles with its' factory loose engine and I would always see a cloud of white smoke at WOT.

I'm expecting to find good compression in all four when I check this weekend. If there was a problem with one or more cylinders I'm sure I'd be seeing exhaust smoke. If compression is OK and a leak-down doesn't show anything I'm not going to worry about it. I'll just keep it topped up.

Thanks for the input guys. I'll keep you posted.

D

[BlueVelocity]

Hoo-rah!! Doug is BACK!

It's really nice to have you back Doug, we were all wondering where you had gone off to. It will certainly be nice to have you on the track with us as well. I'm a PDX instructor now as well so I'll be the one riding shotgun in your car so we can get you graduated up to CTT and into competition. You'll recognize a lot of the guys out there but there a ton of newbs as well. (27 at the race this last Sunday)

I'm with the other guys on the oil consumption, I'm betting it's coming from the turbo. I went through something similiar here recently when I switched over to the GT42. I had so much oil pressure at the turbo it had nowhere to go but through the compressor and into the intake. I ended up having to put in a restrictor to limit the flow to the turbo. It's a pretty easy test, just fire up the car for a few seconds with the oil line going into a bucket instead of the turbo. If it shoots out at what looks like an extremely high pressure stream, you need to restrict it. I've learned a really neat way of making your own restrictors too, call me to discuss.

You can use anything I have Doug. I have a compression tester with all the adapters and whatever you need buddy, just say the word.

Erron S.

[rlarsen]

Well it sure seems as thought the bulk of the oil is NOT going through the pathway that includes the catch cans, since nothing was fundamentally changed about them, they should be performing their vapor separation duties the same way they did before the rebuild. Basically, if you're using the same amount of oil (as measured on the dipstick vs. time/miles), but not collecting it in the catchcans, it's reasonable to assume it's not going through that pathway. The next question is, what other pathways are available? And start eliminating them if possible.

I'm definitely interested in your compression/leakdown results, mostly because I'm hoping we can rule the bottom end out as the culprit.

[BlueVelocity]

I wouldn't think it to be the bottom end. Not on that new of a rebuild. You know what you're doing Ryan, I'm sure the bottom end is just fine.

[Zeppelin]

What weight oil are you running? Thicker oil can lead to higher oil pressures as well.

[rlarsen]

Well I would've thought the shop that built the bottom end in the first place (before I got it) knew what they were doing as well, but it still blew up. Mistakes happen, is all I'm saying. Want to make sure we do our due diligence to rule everything out, especially since this is a track driven car that will be driven primarily at speed.

[Paul]

Hoo-rah!! Doug is BACK!

I'm a PDX instructor now own restrictors too

Erron S.

I didn't know!

A small aside as I hold the flashlight - I think it is the turbo too.:)

Good question on what weight oil you are using. 15w50 might not be ideal?

Paul

[Terrible Talon]

Well I would've thought the shop that built the bottom end in the first place (before I got it) knew what they were doing as well, but it still blew up. Mistakes happen, is all I'm saying. Want to make sure we do our due diligence to rule everything out, especially since this is a track driven car that will be driven primarily at speed.

Absolutely! Taking no chances this time. I do have confidence in your build Ryan but I will be sure everything is right before hitting the track. Another thing I want to address before any track time is crankcase ventilation. Even though catch cans aren't catching any oil right now I think I need better than stock pcv for running big boost lap after lap. Also need to address brake ventilation. Oh yeah, a cage would be nice too.

BTW, I am using 10W-30 Mobil 1. When I went to 15W-30 on the old motor it didn't change a thing.

Can't wait to see 150+ on that straight! Will that break my 140mph speedo? ;-}

D

[Terrible Talon]

Hoo-rah!! Doug is BACK!

It's really nice to have you back Doug, we were all wondering where you had gone off to. It will certainly be nice to have you on the track with us as well. I'm a PDX instructor now as well so I'll be the one riding shotgun in your car so we can get you graduated up to CTT and into competition. You'll recognize a lot of the guys out there but there a ton of newbs as well. (27 at the race this last Sunday)

I'm with the other guys on the oil consumption, I'm betting it's coming from the turbo. I went through something similiar here recently when I switched over to the GT42. I had so much oil pressure at the turbo it had nowhere to go but through the compressor and into the intake. I ended up having to put in a restrictor to limit the flow to the turbo. It's a pretty easy test, just fire up the car for a few seconds with the oil line going into a bucket instead of the turbo. If it shoots out at what looks like an extremely high pressure stream, you need to restrict it. I've learned a really neat way of making your own restrictors too, call me to discuss.

You can use anything I have Doug. I have a compression tester with all the adapters and whatever you need buddy, just say the word.

Erron S.

Thanks Erron. Looking forward to getting out there. Re. the possibility of oil through turbo seals I talked to Robert at FP when they were building the original and he was very specific about the necessity of using the restrictor I mentioned in an earlier post and it would be included in the build. We had a fairly extensive chat about the ball bearing turbo and what it needed for oil supply and about whether or not I should use a filter. I can, as you suggest, see what the stream looks like to be sure though. Still, I can't help but think that since this would be ingested oil I would see white smoke from the exhaust. BUT if this was happening what effect would boost have on seal leakage? Would it increase or decrease or be relatively unaffected? If boost wouldn't significantly effect the amount of leakage it could be that oil pressure being fairly constant when the car is being driven would result in constant leakage which could account for oil usage without obvious smoke. Oil ingestion would be fairly constant at all times while the car is underway so smoke would not be as apparent as it would be the oil being used was only lost during the very limited time the motor sees high boost. This speculation is making my head hurt. I think I'll wait until I see compression test results before continuing. I do think we'll find Ryan's build to be fine though. Thanks for the offer of leak-down test equipment use. I have a compressor but don't have the fittings & gauge needed.

I'll be off line until tomorrow but if you're going to be around this evening I'll give you a call.

Thanks again Erron!

D

[Paul]

This speculation is making my head hurt.

D

Don't overthink the situation. Diagnose is always better than speculate.

Paul

[Terrible Talon]

Don't overthink the situation. Diagnose is always better than speculate.

Paul

First diagnostic test:

Compression

#1 150, #2 150, #3 147, #4 151 (#1 was the problem cyl. before)

We went with 8.5 : 1 did we not Ryan? I think this gauge reads low.

Good uniformity. Confirms that the build is good which certainly does not surprise.

Doug

[BlueVelocity]

That's perfect!
Check the oil feed line to the turbo next, like we discussed above.

[rlarsen]

That confirms good compression ring and valve face sealing, but not necessarily oil ring or valve stem seal condition. Leakdown might show a bad oil ring, stem seals would probably be causing a lot of smoke at idle or just off idle for the amount of oil you're losing.

I would definitely check the turbo out and try to rule that out.

8.5:1 is correct. I believe we briefly discussed higher, but ended up with 8.5. I can dig up the build sheet to confirm (which, in fact I think I still owe you a copy of).

[Terrible Talon]

That confirms good compression ring and valve face sealing, but not necessarily oil ring or valve stem seal condition. Leakdown might show a bad oil ring, stem seals would probably be causing a lot of smoke at idle or just off idle for the amount of oil you're losing.

I would definitely check the turbo out and try to rule that out.

I'll try to get a leakdown done this weekend. Meanwhile, I still get weird flashes of knock occasionally. With Dsmlink "ignore knock" set to 35% TP & 3500 RPM w/ 19# boost using 93 octane & around 10:1 AFR, I usually only see small traces of knock at WOT - nothing that signifigantly alters timing. I normally roll on throttle smoothly and only above 3500 when I go WOT but even so, every now & then, I'll get enormous jags of knock at throttle application that pull timing back so much power just dies. Doesn't happen all the time by any means and doesn't seem to be linked to anything in particular. It appears to be totally random. It seems to happen less with the new knock sensor but still happens. Not a good thing for a road course, obviously, and something that needs to be dealt with before any track time. Any ideas?

Doug

[Paul]

Any ideas?

Doug

Crazy idea number 1:

I don't think (think not know) we get a consistent product at the pump. Ryan has/does work in this field and perhaps can give greater insight. That is why ecu's have fuel trims/adjustments.

Crazy idea number 2:

This car has been dormant for a long time - have you ran some kind of gas treatment through it?

Paul

[rlarsen]

Crazy idea number 1:

I don't think (think not know) we get a consistent product at the pump.

Not even remotely. Even if the products being produced from the refineries were perfectly consistent (they aren't, but QC is pretty good), the individual station owners can take some liberties/have dirty equipment, etc.

Octane is not tested at individual pumps. There's a lot of "take their word for it" when it comes to fuel grades/quality.

[TerryLiv]

I would definitely check the turbo out and try to rule that out.

I'll try to get a leakdown done this weekend. Meanwhile, I still get weird flashes of knock occasionally. With Dsmlink "ignore knock" set to 35% TP & 3500 RPM w/ 19# boost using 93 octane & around 10:1 AFR, I usually only see small traces of knock at WOT - nothing that signifigantly alters timing. I normally roll on throttle smoothly and only above 3500 when I go WOT but even so, every now & then, I'll get enormous jags of knock at throttle application that pull timing back so much power just dies. Doesn't happen all the time by any means and doesn't seem to be linked to anything in particular. It appears to be totally random. It seems to happen less with the new knock sensor but still happens. Not a good thing for a road course, obviously, and something that needs to be dealt with before any track time. Any ideas?

Doug

Doug,

I can almost guarantee you will not get this knock with E-85. Black Goo maybe, but not knock.

Terry

[Terrible Talon]

Doug,

I can almost guarantee you will not get this knock with E-85. Black Goo maybe, but not knock.

Terry

Hey Terry! Good to hear from you. Yeah, I'm wanting to go to E85 but terrified of the dreaded "black Goo". I thought my FIC 1050 injectors would be the last injector upgrade I'd ever need but that might not be the case now. Probably marginal for my setup w/ E85. As for knock, I've seen the exact same thing with 104 in the tank.

Doug

[Terrible Talon]

Crazy idea number 1:

I don't think (think not know) we get a consistent product at the pump. Ryan has/does work in this field and perhaps can give greater insight. That is why ecu's have fuel trims/adjustments.

Crazy idea number 2:

This car has been dormant for a long time - have you ran some kind of gas treatment through it?

Paul

There was only a couple of gallons of gas in the tank while the car was down. We filled it up with fresh 91 before starting it up for the first time and there have been many tanks of gas consumed since then. I've also cleaned the fuel filter after the first couple of tankfulls.

D

[Terrible Talon]

OK. I'm convinced E85 is the way to go for the track. With my current setup and 93 octane I'd not be comfortable running more than the 18-19# of boost I'm currently at on my FP3050. Race gas is ridiculously expensive so I don't want to go there to be able to safely run more boost. Here's what I have that relates to fuel:

FIC 1050 injectors
Supra fuel pump
SteveTek fuel system mod. including #6AN braided ss lines.
K&N billet fuel filter
Adj. fuel pressure regulator
stock return line
Supra intercooler
2 stage water injection
GM MAF
Zeitronix WB
Dsmlink

I assume the injectors are marginal at best but everything else should work. WI will probably no longer be needed but I'd welcome input on that. I went to WI to offset the relatively small intercooler. A front mount would definitely have caused overheating at the track.

So, I look to you guys w/ E85 experience to tell me if I need to address anything else before filling up with corn fuel. Also, what's the latest on black goo? Is there a station between Denver & Ft. Collins that seems to have cleaner E85?

Doug

[Josh Warriner]

OMG! Doug Hayne. That's a blast from the past.

[BlueVelocity]

Doug,

Is the fuel filter a stainless mesh type? That's really what you need, but I ran on the stock Mitsu for 2 years without any issues.

You probably won't need the WI anymore. I have yet to see any knock, even on the 600+hp dyno runs.

It looks like you can switch over pretty easily by adding in the 20% and go to low boost. Then just adjust the fuel and boost accordingly as you go. You can be pretty lean on this stuff as long as the timing and load are kept low to start out with. Just take it in steps and you should be ok. You will want to check the fuel filter faily quickly, 10-15 miles or so after the switch as you clean out the tank and lines of any junk.

[Terrible Talon]

OMG! Doug Hayne. That's a blast from the past.

Hey Josh! No longer satisfied with memories of the past. Now that HPR is open I'm looking for new thrills!

Doug

[Terrible Talon]

Doug,

Is the fuel filter a stainless mesh type? That's really what you need, but I ran on the stock Mitsu for 2 years without any issues.

It is a ss mesh. Think I'll turn down the boost and adjust injector comp 20%
& go fill up down at the Gunbarrell 66. What about dead time?

Thanks,

Doug

[BlueVelocity]

I didn't adjust mine at all when I made the switch over, but I'm on an AEM now. Not sure if the DSM would be any different in relation to dead time?

[Overkill]

Doug

FYI, at I-25 and Hwy 52 they installed a brand new E-85 pump at the loaf-n-jug and I would go with that over the gun barrel station. The gun barrel station might be a black goo station, which we are still in the process of figuring out.

If you could fuel up at loaf-n-jug exclusively and see if your injectors get the black goo that would help us find out what stations its coming from.

[Terrible Talon]

Doug

FYI, at I-25 and Hwy 52 they installed a brand new E-85 pump at the loaf-n-jug and I would go with that over the gun barrel station. The gun barrel station might be a black goo station, which we are still in the process of figuring out.

If you could fuel up at loaf-n-jug exclusively and see if your injectors get the black goo that would help us find out what stations its coming from.

I'll do it. I'm going to do a leak-down first though.

Thanks for the info.

Doug

[TerryLiv]

Hey Terry! Good to hear from you. Yeah, I'm wanting to go to E85 but terrified of the dreaded "black Goo". I thought my FIC 1050 injectors would be the last injector upgrade I'd ever need but that might not be the case now. Probably marginal for my setup w/ E85. As for knock, I've seen the exact same thing with 104 in the tank.

Doug

Doug,

Jake tells me the E-85 from Hill Petroleum does not create black goo. I have not been able to test it yet.

Also, you should not have to change fuel injector dead time when changing fuel. Max timing of about 21-22 degrees at 6500+ RPM and 30 psi of boost.

Terry

[dsm_gsx97]

First here is some info about E85 for you and DSMLink settings Doug...

http://jeffgst.com/e85global.html

Terry is right, it shouldn't be a dead time adjustment...only a global.

Second has anyone considered that this knock is just typical engine noise from a rebuild and that if DSMLink V2 could adjust the knock voltage table like AEM does we wouldn't be seeing this? It just seems weird to me that no matter what boost or fuel you have knock. That tells me its typical engine noise (from a rebuild) that your knock sensor is picking up.

Just throwing ideas out...

[BlueVelocity]

First here is some info about E85 for you and DSMLink settings Doug...

http://jeffgst.com/e85global.html

Terry is right, it shouldn't be a dead time adjustment...only a global.

Second has anyone considered that this knock is just typical engine noise from a rebuild and that if DSMLink V2 could adjust the knock voltage table like AEM does we wouldn't be seeing this? It just seems weird to me that no matter what boost or fuel you have knock. That tells me its typical engine noise (from a rebuild) that your knock sensor is picking up.

Just throwing ideas out...


Ya, that what I thought as well but really didn't "know" because I don't play with the link software.

Chris, does link take the raw voltage and give you the adjustable parameter for knock? (like the treshold voltage on the AEM is what I'm trying to say)

Could it be say a half of a volt of noise that DSM link is calling knock?

[rlarsen]

What exactly is "typical noise from a rebuild"?

[BlueVelocity]

I wouldn't call it "from a rebuild", I'd just say from the motor. In the AEM software you can watch the noise from the knock sensor just as a microphone. We then set the treshold value to enable retard when it goes over a certain voltage. I think mine is set to about 2 volts. Knock shows up as a huge spike.

[Cloud]

Hey blue, quick question. What are you using to amplify the signal from the knock sensor? Surely the sensor itself isn't putting out 2+ volts. I am currently trying to figureo out what I am going to do for a knock setup with megasquirt and it seems like the aem is VERY similar from what you have described.

[BlueVelocity]

Brian,
No amplification at all. That's raw voltage from the knock sensor. When I initially set it up we ran around staying out of boost just looking at engine noise. Then set the threshold slightly higher than the voltage we saw as noise. Pretty simplistic actually, works great.

[Cloud]

Very interesting, as the dsm is a 2 wire knock sensor which wire did you connect to the aem and what do you run the other wire to?

[BlueVelocity]

The AEM plugs into the stock harness, I didn't have to run any other wires other than the clutch switch for NLTS.

[Terrible Talon]

First here is some info about E85 for you and DSMLink settings Doug...

http://jeffgst.com/e85global.html

Terry is right, it shouldn't be a dead time adjustment...only a global.

Second has anyone considered that this knock is just typical engine noise from a rebuild and that if DSMLink V2 could adjust the knock voltage table like AEM does we wouldn't be seeing this? It just seems weird to me that no matter what boost or fuel you have knock. That tells me its typical engine noise (from a rebuild) that your knock sensor is picking up.

Just throwing ideas out...

Thanks Chris. This gives me exactly what I need to make the global adjustment.

The baffling thing about my knock spikes is that they seem to be random, happening only occasionally. The only things they have in common are: 1. They occur around 3900 -5000 rpm during throttle roll in. 2. They're huge. Timing is pulled down below 5. Boost can be anywhere between 5 & 15#. The AEM system sure sounds like the way to go. Wish dsmlink would allow establishing a basline for engine noise then tuning to ignore any input below that.

Doug

[dsm_gsx97]

Rebuilt engines typically are noiser than factory ones. Not sure why, but it seems its pretty normal from what I've read and seen first hand with my 2 DSMs.

Blue touched on the knock table pretty well and what is even nicer is with AEM we can decide exactly what happens when the knock voltage threshold is exceeded. Less timing how much, more fuel how much, ect.. It's fancy with a bunch of different parameters. :)

I believe that ECMLink V3 (new DSMLink) allows you to adjust the knock table, but I could be wrong. I haven't played with it enough. With the direct access to the ECU I wouldn't see why not though. The stock ECU knock table was just a average of what these motors would see. That's why some cars have phantom knock and others don't. Its just their knock sensor is a little more sensitive than the "average one" mitsu engineers wrote into the ECU or at least that's how I've understood it.

AEM is very nice and I like it a lot, but now that V3 is out I'm not sure why a DSMer would go that route now unless you want to run more inputs and outputs. DSMLink or should I say ECMLink is limited in that sense, but for initial setup and support with any kind of issues, hands down they blow AEM away. AEM tuning tricks are trade secrets when trying to get some answers from other AEM tuners (except you Jake of course).

One last weird question...does your O2 cycle at idle like it should? Weird question I know, but I had a GVR4 I was tuning a little while ago that reacted somewhat like you just described and I believed it was because his O2 would die at times (it would cycle sometimes and other times it would not) and would put him in safe mode. I made him swap O2s and his issues went away. Not exactly like your case but a few similarities so I figured I'd throw it out there.

[Terrible Talon]

Rebuilt engines typically are noiser than factory ones. Not sure why, but it seems its pretty normal from what I've read and seen first hand with my 2 DSMs.

Blue touched on the knock table pretty well and what is even nicer is with AEM we can decide exactly what happens when the knock voltage threshold is exceeded. Less timing how much, more fuel how much, ect.. It's fancy with a bunch of different parameters. :)

I believe that ECMLink V3 (new DSMLink) allows you to adjust the knock table, but I could be wrong. I haven't played with it enough. With the direct access to the ECU I wouldn't see why not though. The stock ECU knock table was just a average of what these motors would see. That's why some cars have phantom knock and others don't. Its just their knock sensor is a little more sensitive than the "average one" mitsu engineers wrote into the ECU or at least that's how I've understood it.

AEM is very nice and I like it a lot, but now that V3 is out I'm not sure why a DSMer would go that route now unless you want to run more inputs and outputs. DSMLink or should I say ECMLink is limited in that sense, but for initial setup and support with any kind of issues, hands down they blow AEM away. AEM tuning tricks are trade secrets when trying to get some answers from other AEM tuners (except you Jake of course).

One last weird question...does your O2 cycle at idle like it should? Weird question I know, but I had a GVR4 I was tuning a little while ago that reacted somewhat like you just described and I believed it was because his O2 would die at times (it would cycle sometimes and other times it would not) and would put him in safe mode. I made him swap O2s and his issues went away. Not exactly like your case but a few similarities so I figured I'd throw it out there.

Forged pistons have got to be noisier. Definitely louder when cold. With 35%/3500 threshold I never see knock that might be related to cold engine noise because I'm very careful to avoid throttle input much above 20% until I'm thoroughly warmed up.

I am going to upgrade to ECMLink v3 at some point in the near future. I'll check the Link forum to see if there's anything there about better knock diagnostics w/ v3.

O2 cycles normally at idle. .88 - .90 WOT. Never see any variation from that.

D

[Terrible Talon]

Copied from my post to "Engine"/"Crankcase pressure solution":

Finally got around to checking the stock crank vent system. Max. pressure is just under 2 psi at redline in 2nd & 3rd. The needle does not move off zero during high rpm deceleration in 2nd gear so the stock system is not generating any vacuum. Next up is installing the upgraded system detailed in the post quoted above. I'll be replacing my "blow straight thru" catch can with a high flo Saikou Michi unit when it arrives.

BTW, I did a leakdown test and it couldn't have been much better if the cheap Harbor Freight gauge is to be believed: 5-7% on all four. Ryan: This really confirms you did a great job putting this motor together!


Here's what's left to do before hitting the track:

1. Revised crankcase vent system & test results
2. Install ported oil filter housing to reduce oil pressure (porting is done, just need to install)
3. Replace Dsmlink v2 w/ ECMLink
4. Convert to E85
5. Final tuning with boost turned up to (hopefully) 25.
6. Race tires

I'm hoping to get everything done before sustained cold weather sets in. I'm seriously stoked about getting out to HPR! Getting bored with mountain biking and need new source of adrenaline.

Doug

[rlarsen]

BTW, I did a leakdown test and it couldn't have been much better if the cheap Harbor Freight gauge is to be believed: 5-7% on all four. Ryan: This really confirms you did a great job putting this motor together!

2% was about the best I've ever seen, but that was on a stock rebuild with significantly tighter ring gaps and wall clearances than your motor, so I guess I can live with your numbers. :)

[rlarsen]

So, Doug, it's been 2 months, any updates? :D

[v413nc3]

To answer some questions about knock. DSMLink (ie OEM ECU) uses a knock count not a raw voltage map. The way you'd need to modify it is to allow a larger span of noise over a certain range where the new built engine is operating correctly but just with more noise being detected. The 1G knock sensor and 1G ECU knock calibration are junk and you might as well toss anything you find out.

The AEM has a voltage threshold but it averages the spikes only over known times that the engine is firing. You can view it in raw noise or the interpolated data. The table references the interpolated data not the raw noise. You could see 5v of noise but if it's during a time where no firing has occured then it is ignored. This is why making sure that timing is in synch with an AEM is of critical importance.

[Terrible Talon]

So, Doug, it's been 2 months, any updates? :D

I've been really busy but slowly pecking away at issues. Coolant, oil, power steering leaks are dealt with. New rear brake rotors, pads front & rear, titanium backing plates front, and brake fluid replacement and bleeding done. Ported oil filter housing installed. Oversized crankcase vent w/ Saikou Michi catch can installed. New steet tires installed.

The ported filter housing resulted in signifigantly lower oil pressure. I don't have an aftermarket gauge but after eighteen years and three engines I'm very tuned into relative pressure on the stock gauge. It's now running about where it was with the original engine. Warm idle is about 1/3 up between lower tic and middle tic (middle tic is the lower end of the "normal range"). Warm cruise is straight up centered. Funny thing though, when I run it up to 6000 with part throttle pressure actually drops slightly. Still well above the lower "normal" tic though. At high RPM the gauge read right at the upper "normal" tic with the orginal FP motor and about 1/8" below with your build - both WAY above the original engine. The housing I pulled out had very minimal porting - just the lower corners of the hole squared off but otherwise no enlargement. I assume FP did that unless you did? I'm much more comfortable with oil pressure now. I don't know if this will affect the oil use issue but we'll see.

I constructed a boost leak test device with pressure gauge and on-off valve and will do a boost leak test when I get a chance - hopefully this weekend. While the intake pipe is off I'll check for turbo shaft play and evidence of oil in post turbo plumbing. Since compression and leak-down were good about the only explanation for oil use left is turbo seals. Still no evidence of smoke in the exhaust or leaks and oil use had continued to increase until the ported housing was installed and I only have a few miles on it since so no chance to see if it makes a difference.

That's about it. I'll clean fuel and turbo oil filters again and address any boost leak issues if they exist and then I'm ready to go to E85. BTW, I'm now consistently getting knock (about 4-5 degrees timing pull) at WOT above 5000rpm. Only happened occasionally at high rpm before. It's going to be interesting to see if I still see all this knock after going to E85. You may recall I mentioned in a previous post that I was seeing the same knock with 104 octane as with 93 but that was on throttle tip-in at lower rpm than what I've been seeing lately. If I had to guess I'd say the original lower rpm knock was from some sort of mechanical noise but what I'm seeing now is the real thing. If so, it should go away with E85. We'll see.

Doug

[rlarsen]

Regarding the porting of the oil filter housing, I apologize. It should've been done, and I know it should have been done, but for some reason I didn't do it. Probably just got overlooked while I was trying to finish assembly. In my mind I probably told myself adding the squirters should bring it down within reason without having to port the housing, but really, I should have done it. I'm glad it got taken care of, regardless. I'd venture a guess the part throttle drop you're seeing is a function of the larger port as the valve opens.

Anyway, while good leakdown and compression don't always rule out oil consumption through the shortblock, I'm doubting that the shortblock is the culprit. Have you ruled out the head as well? While you did not have any direct impact damage to the valves (like from a timing belt break), I'm worried now that the guides could've been hurt somehow when the #1 top ring let go, which would've resulted in rapid stem seal wear. Although I recall everything being in spec when I checked it out. Do you remember if the guides were replaced during the FP build? I seem to recall them being bronze so I'm guessing so.

What is your present rate of consumption under reasonably normal driving conditions? Obviously sustained high-temperature high-RPM operation will cause some increase in oil consumption in any motor. I assume this is typical consumption (i.e. exiting the car stage left, either exhaust or otherwise), and not blowby collection into the catch can system.

The knock is definitely of concern to me, as I am pretty sure knock played a fairly large role in the destruction of the FP motor, based on the combustion chamber evidence. Keep me updated on your findings.

[Terrible Talon]

Regarding the porting of the oil filter housing, I apologize. It should've been done, and I know it should have been done, but for some reason I didn't do it. Probably just got overlooked while I was trying to finish assembly. In my mind I probably told myself adding the squirters should bring it down within reason without having to port the housing, but really, I should have done it. I'm glad it got taken care of, regardless. I'd venture a guess the part throttle drop you're seeing is a function of the larger port as the valve opens.

Yeah. I think I'm OK with pressure now.

Anyway, while good leakdown and compression don't always rule out oil consumption through the shortblock, I'm doubting that the shortblock is the culprit. Have you ruled out the head as well? While you did not have any direct impact damage to the valves (like from a timing belt break), I'm worried now that the guides could've been hurt somehow when the #1 top ring let go, which would've resulted in rapid stem seal wear. Although I recall everything being in spec when I checked it out. Do you remember if the guides were replaced during the FP build? I seem to recall them being bronze so I'm guessing so.

Remember the photo I sent of the old piston? Showed dings where oversize valves were hitting piston. I think you would have noticed if there were problems with valves or guides though. Rolling the valves would tell you if they were at all bent. FP built & ported head did have new bronze guides if I recall correctly.

What is your present rate of consumption under reasonably normal driving conditions? Obviously sustained high-temperature high-RPM operation will cause some increase in oil consumption in any motor. I assume this is typical consumption (i.e. exiting the car stage left, either exhaust or otherwise), and not blowby collection into the catch can system.

I was shocked when I checked oil level a few weeks ago. I'd topped it off maybe 100-150 miles prior and it was a quart+ low! Mostly normal driving with a couple of WOT bursts each time I took it out. WTF?! Why wouldn't I see some smoke in the rear view mirror? When Patty followed me a couple of months ago she said she saw a puff of smoke when I nailed it but only for a second and she thought it was dark smoke - not white/blue oil smoke. If I'm using that much oil I should be laying down a smoke screen any time I'm on the throttle and even when I'm just cruising for that matter. There has not even been a teaspoonful of oil in the catch can in at least 2000 miles.

The knock is definitely of concern to me, as I am pretty sure knock played a fairly large role in the destruction of the FP motor, based on the combustion chamber evidence. Keep me updated on your findings.

We'll see what E85 does. Knock may have had something to do with the FP failure but remember I had a serious crankcase pressure problem almost immediately with that motor. Blew the balance shaft plug out on low boost at less than 100 miles! The FP motor filled my original small catch can after just a couple hundred miles and after only a few laps at the track when I first took it out to 2 Creek. It just got worse and worse but I was seeing little or no knock when I logged it on or off the track early on. I think it might have been possible I got some serious knock once later on when I wasn't logging and ran out of water (for water inj.) without realizing it. Clearly most of the damage to #1 was from the disintegrated ring.

If I find much wheel play in the turbo I'll send it back to FP for rebuild. If that's not the problem and I continue to see elevated levels of oil consumption I guess I'll have to pull the head. You mention not ruling out short block issues. Anything I could do that I've not already done to check on that possibility?

Doug

[rlarsen]

If I find much wheel play in the turbo I'll send it back to FP for rebuild. If that's not the problem and I continue to see elevated levels of oil consumption I guess I'll have to pull the head. You mention not ruling out short block issues. Anything I could do that I've not already done to check on that possibility?

I read back and it seems like you're using 1qt in less than 1000 miles. I would consider that a bit much. I can't believe you're not seeing any smoking if the oil is going through the combustion chamber. Have you tried some of the old tactics for determining whether it's stem seals? Such as letting it idle for awhile, and then revving? Letting it cost down a hill in gear at 40+MPH and then give it some gas and see if you see some smoke?

I would definitely do what you can to rule out the turbo first as well, remember several were speculating that your high oil pressure before installation of the ported pump housing could've been causing oil push with your ball bearing turbo, restrictor or not.

Since you're not getting oil in the catch can, it implies that you're not generating excessive crankcase pressure or blowby (which coincides with the acceptable leakdown numbers). If the shortblock is using oil, it can pretty much only be a result of the oil rings not doing their job. Short of a leakdown test itself, I'm not familiar with any other methods to determine if this is a problem, unfortunately. Maybe someone else can chime in.

Basically it's almost a process of elimination. If you are reasonably certain you aren't losing oil from any of the other possible sources, then it almost has to be the shortblock at that point.

One other thing, have you tried pulling the plugs and inspecting their condition? Shine a light down onto the piston crown and see if it looks dry? I've seen motors that used a lot of oil in the past, can have a "wet" look to the top of the piston.

[Terrible Talon]

I read back and it seems like you're using 1qt in less than 1000 miles. I would consider that a bit much. I can't believe you're not seeing any smoking if the oil is going through the combustion chamber. Have you tried some of the old tactics for determining whether it's stem seals? Such as letting it idle for awhile, and then revving? Letting it cost down a hill in gear at 40+MPH and then give it some gas and see if you see some smoke?

I would definitely do what you can to rule out the turbo first as well, remember several were speculating that your high oil pressure before installation of the ported pump housing could've been causing oil push with your ball bearing turbo, restrictor or not.

Since you're not getting oil in the catch can, it implies that you're not generating excessive crankcase pressure or blowby (which coincides with the acceptable leakdown numbers). If the shortblock is using oil, it can pretty much only be a result of the oil rings not doing their job. Short of a leakdown test itself, I'm not familiar with any other methods to determine if this is a problem, unfortunately. Maybe someone else can chime in.

Basically it's almost a process of elimination. If you are reasonably certain you aren't losing oil from any of the other possible sources, then it almost has to be the shortblock at that point.

One other thing, have you tried pulling the plugs and inspecting their condition? Shine a light down onto the piston crown and see if it looks dry? I've seen motors that used a lot of oil in the past, can have a "wet" look to the top of the piston.


I'll try the methods you mention in your first paragraph. Hard to imagine, though, that something as intermittant as what that would indicate could cause that much oil consumption. More likely something that's constant such as steady flow through turbo seals (see my idle speculation in earlier post). We'll see about turbo shaft play this weekend.

I've not checked the plugs recently but when I pulled them for the leak-down test they were perfectly dry. I've been meaning to have another look - in fact I'll go look now----- #1 plug still perfectly dry. Too cold out there in the garage to mess with the others but I'd wager $1000 they're all dry too. I'll wait for warmer weather to peer at the piston crown but anything that's causing oil use at the rate I'm seeing should make plugs look less than perfect and cause a smoke screen. I assume bad oil control rings would cause smoke on coast down in gear? Shouldn't cylinder pressure under boost keep oil from leaking thru the rings? Can oil get by the rings during cruise when there is cylinder pressure but not extreme pressure? Just trying to sort out what's possible to help know more about what to look for. As careful as you are Ryan I cannot believe you did something during assembly that would cause oil rings to fail and I seriously doubt I did anything during the early life of this engine to cause failure. I did lots of easy winding up w/ no boost to about 4000 rpm and then coasting down to seat the rings. at about 60 to 80 miles I did maybe two pulls to about 5500 with 18-19# boost but not more than 5 or 6 total until around 200 miles. I continued to do lots of easy up and down for at least 7 - 800 miles, never reving over 5500 until around 300 miles. Surely none of this could hurt the oil control rings.

D

[Terrible Talon]

I assume bad oil control rings would cause smoke on coast down in gear? Shouldn't cylinder pressure under boost keep oil from leaking thru the rings? Can oil get by the rings during cruise when there is cylinder pressure but not extreme pressure? Just trying to sort out what's possible to help know more about what to look for.


Guess I need to have someone else drive Terrible T while I follow & look for smoke under different scenarios. Can't be Patty - the car frightens her. Any volunteers? Erik?

D

[BlueVelocity]

I'll be your huckleberry. :)

We may need to wait for less snow than what's on the roads now though. We'll be here on Sunday working on the ChumpCar Doug. You are always welcome at my house. I'm sure you'd also have more than a handful of DSM guys on hand as well.

[Terrible Talon]

I'll be your huckleberry. :)

We may need to wait for less snow than what's on the roads now though. We'll be here on Sunday working on the ChumpCar Doug. You are always welcome at my house. I'm sure you'd also have more than a handful of DSM guys on hand as well.

Thanks Erron. I'll drop by Sunday.

D

[Terrible Talon]

I'm on E85 from Kum & Go at 52 & I25 now. So far without much tuning it runs perfectly in closed loop (holds WB 14.7 nicely) but stumbles badly at WOT. I installed new 7ES plugs gapped to .022 but the only change seems to be more intermittent and larger stumbles than the smaller very frequent hiccups previously when gapped to .028. I think I may have a fuel pressure issue because I'm seeing rich (10.2 - 10.5)at the beginning of a pull and it drops to around 11.5 - 11.0 as rpm increases but that should be about right. Stumbles all through the pull though, regardless of WB O2 reading. I've not done much closed loop tuning yet & am reluctant to try WOT tuning until I know why it's stumbling. BTW, the K&N high-flow fuel filter w/ SS mesh was perfectly clean after about 1/2 tank of corn. Boost leak check shows only small TB shaft leak after big BOV leak was repaired. I have a Turbo Supra fuel pump & 6AN lines all the way to the fuel rail. Aeromotive FPR & stock return lines. Any idea what could be causing the stumbling? I really want to trouble shoot that before spending much more time at WOT.

For long term solution to any possible fuel pressure issues I'm thinking of adding a Walbro 255 in-line to work with the Supra pump. Any thoughts on that? Could I possibly overwhelm my stock return line with a 2nd pump?

Still using oil though, even with ported oil filter housing & the .030 restrictor I recently added to the turbo oil supply from the head. Still no smoke or oil in the catch can. Go figure.

I keep dinking away, getting closer to be ready for HPR in the spring.

Doug

[BlueVelocity]

I really have only one major thought on the stumbling. What is the fuel pressure at? I'm wondering if maybe the pump just can't do what you need it to. Is fuel pressure stable?

[rigby]

I think I may have a fuel pressure issue because I'm seeing rich (10.2 - 10.5)at the beginning of a pull and it drops to around 11.5 - 11.0 as rpm increases but that should be about right.

For long term solution to any possible fuel pressure issues I'm thinking of adding a Walbro 255 in-line to work with the Supra pump. Any thoughts on that? Could I possibly overwhelm my stock return line with a 2nd pump?


Doug,

What size injectors? Do you have a fuel pressure gauge installed? What base pressure is your fpr set for?

FWIW, with the -6AN lines, you're probably already overwhelming the stock return... on the low rpm side. So that seems to corrolate to the behavior that you're seeing (ie: a little richer at the beginning). Adding another pump would exacerbate the issue in that case.

I haven't kept track of your whole setup, so forgive me if you've already covered this, but have you eliminated timing as an issue?

[rlarsen]

That oil consumption is driving me crazy. It shouldn't be happening. Please let me know as soon as you identify it.

[TerryLiv]

Doug,

What boost pressure are you running. I can't run more than 30 PSI without stumbling. I have been told my problem is caused by the small .63 A/R of the PTE exhaust housing.

Definitely check the base fuel pressure to see how low you can operate at idle without building too much pressure. I have 2 parallel pumps and at idle 52 PSI is the lowest it will show. I Have all stock fuel lines and return line. I run one pump until 23 PSI of boost then turn the second one on. This allows me to operate at idle and 33 PSI of fuel pressure.

Have fun.

Terry

[Terrible Talon]

Thanks for the input guys.

Here's my basic setup for those who may not be aware of it: 2.3 stroker, Ross 8.5:1, Eagle, no balance shafts, ported oil pump housing (shortblock built by Ryan Larsen), Setrab oil cooler, ported head w/ oversize valves, HKS 272/272 cams, extrude honed stock intake, FIC 1050 injectors, GM MAFT, stock BOV w/ DeJon mod, Supra side-mount IC, FP3052 turbo w/ FP .030 oil restrictor, Tial wastegate, Thermal 3" exhaust, Zeitronix wideband, DSMLink v2.

Erron: Fuel pressure set to 1G base 38 psi. Pressure is stable but doesn't seem to give quite 1 to 1 increase for boost. I peak at about 55 psi with 19# boost. Should be 57#.

Steve: Great to hear from you Steve! I failed to give credit where credit is due in my post. My 6AN from tank to fuel rail is your SteveTek system exactly as you wrote it up. Sounds like a second pump would definitely overwhelm the stock return but I don't seem to have an issue now with too much pressure with the setup as it exists with the Supra pump. As mentioned above, I'm a stable 38 psi at idle. Timing seems to be running a bit on the low side with all DSMLink sliders neutral. I should post a DSMLink log but I'm almost embarrased with how sloppy they are now until I get at least a base level of tune. I will upgrade to ECMLink v3 when time permits but I want to get a stable tune with v2 first. If I add a second pump I guess I'll just have to bite the bullet and run a 6AN return line.

Ryan: Oil pressure issue is driving me crazy too. Don't know what else to check at this point. I've put it on a back burner for now. No smoke, nothing in catch can, no leaks - where's it going?!

Terry: Running 19 psi. boost, as mentioned above 38 psi base FP.


Doug

[BlueVelocity]

Is there any way of posting the boost and wideband graph out of link?

[rlarsen]

I am completely stumped by the oil loss. The only thing that I can think of is that it IS being burned, but for some reason you're not seeing smoking. The only reason is that the V8 S4's have a somewhat bad reputation for oil consumption (to the point where even Audi claims 1qt/1000 miles is acceptable), and there have been reports of cars that use 2qts+/1000 miles and never smoke.

I'm just not sure how to confirm it, or determine the root cause definitively. My point is, if it's passing excessive oil past the rings for whatever reason, I probably owe you another shortblock.

I'm also concerned that it's perhaps interrelated with the other problems you've had ("phantom" knock, etc.).

[BlueVelocity]

After driving around behind him (even had video for him to review) It certainly didn't look like rings at all. There was very-very minor puff of white/gray smoke when he went into boost. That's what made me think that he needed the restrictor in the feed line because it appeared to be doing exactly what mine did prior to the restrictor. There wasn't any smoke off throttle, part throttle cruise, or really under boost. It was only when he went from part throttle to full throttle (judging by sound).

[Terrible Talon]

Restrictor is in & Patty tells me there's only a very tiny puff of gray-black smoke when I punch it. That's perfectly normal from what I've observed when I've watched other cars. Also says it doesn't smell like oil smoke but I'm not sure she knows what oil smoke should smell like.

In any case I've going to put that issue on the shelf until I get set up right on E85. Heading up to the high country this afternoon for the weekend so no playing with Terrible T until next week.

Doug

[rigby]

Thanks for the input guys.

Here's my basic setup:
- HKS 272/272 cams,
- FIC 1050 injectors,
- Fuel pressure set to 1G base 38 psi. Pressure is stable but doesn't seem to give quite 1 to 1 increase for boost. I peak at about 55 psi with 19# boost. Should be 57#.

Steve: Sounds like a second pump would definitely overwhelm the stock return but I don't seem to have an issue now with too much pressure with the setup as it exists with the Supra pump. As mentioned above, I'm a stable 38 psi at idle.


Doug -- Couple of observations here... Big 'lumpy' cams & Huge injectors really stand out to me when talking about the low end. I understand that you need bigger injectors since you're running E85, but injectors that big just may not be able to meter the fuel accurately at low rpm because their 'on time' isn't a reasonable percentage of the duty cycle (ie: > 3-4%). Couple that with the big cams and I'm not surprised it's really hard to tune down there. Do any of your logs show your injector duty cycle through the rpm range you're trying to tune for?

Second observation is that you mention that your FP is 38psi at idle. Assuming you're still under vac (even with big cams) at idle, that pressure is way high. The stock fuel pressure should be 38-40psi + manifold pressure. So on my old stockish dsm, with -20psi vac at idle, I would have about 20psi fuel pressure and it would then go linearly up to about 60psi at 20psi boost. If you're going from 38 to 55, that's severely non-linear and is a big problem IMO. This definately points to overrunning the stock return to me.

As far as recommendations, first thing I would do is mod the fuel return line so that you get back to linear across the whole manifold pressure spectrum. Secondly, for your application (road racing, not drag, right?) and horsepower target, I would double check the math and make sure your injectors are the needed size. You'll want your duty cycle to be somewhat under 100% (or lower for more margin) at WOT and maximum air mass. If it's significantly down below that, you could get better low-mid range performance with a somewhat smaller injector.

Cheers!

PS: did a quick check on E85 injector size here: http://injector-rehab.com/kbse/e85injectorsize.htm. Not sure what your hp target is, but the current size is probably close :)

[rlarsen]

The smoke behavior sounds like fuel, to be honest. Still no explanation for the oil though...

[Terrible Talon]

Steve:

Thanks for your comments. You are right. I had forgotten base fuel pressure should be 37.5 for 1G's with vacuum DISCONNECTED. I disconnected the vacuum line from the fpr and saw 43#. I reduced it to 38 but this required pretty coarse adjustments. I kept adjusting down with no change (even after blipping the throttle) until it suddenly dropped to 38. Didn't seem to want to go lower. With vacuum hose reconnected I'm seeing 34. Still too high, obviously. So you must be right about my return line being too restrictive. I went out and did a couple of WOT pulls in 2nd & 3rd and only saw a few misfires below about 4500 rpm. Smooths out nicely above that so I must be on the right track. Base fp was just too high and probably is still too high causing rich mixture. I'll try to set it down to 27 as specified in svc manual with vacuum connected but doubt it will go anywhere near that low until I install 6AN return. I'm assuming my wideband was not showing particularly rich because it's just reading what's actually combusting and ignoring what must have been raw fuel in the exhaust.

Re. my 1050 injectors, I thought I might need to go larger. Most DSM's with anything like my setup are running 1600's. On gas I was running well but with only 58% duty cycle. Now, on E85, I'm seeing 79% so I think I'm probably OK but we'll see when I get a good tune.

I'll post a dsmlink log sometime in the next couple of days.

Doug

[prophecymiller]

I'm assuming my wideband was not showing particularly rich because it's just reading what's actually combusting and ignoring what must have been raw fuel in the exhaust.

Is it possible the car is missing and that is how the wideband is showing O2 being in the exhaust? Somehow the sensor is putting out a lower voltage meaning there is a smaller amount of oxygen passing the membrane in the sensor vs. when there is actually a completely rich condition, where there is high voltage due to as much oxygen passing through the sensor as possible from the atmosphere into the exhaust stream. Remember, the O2 sensor works on an oxygen gradient between atmosphere and the exhaust stream.

Steve:I had forgotten base fuel pressure should be 37.5 for 1G's with vacuum DISCONNECTED. I disconnected the vacuum line from the fpr and saw 43#. Didn't seem to want to go lower. With vacuum hose reconnected I'm seeing 34. Still too high, obviously.

This means you went from 38psi with the line connected to 43psi disconnected meaning you are running ~10.2in/Hg vacuum...keep this in mind when you are thinking the fuel pressure should drop to the service manual's specs. You are not running nearly as much vacuum as factory, so the numbers will not line up. This is backed up by the fact you readjusted the fuel pressure with the line disconnected and it only dropped ~4psi connected.

I'm not really sure if you should drop it further to line up with the factory spec with the line connected or disconnected(I would assume connected, although it may not matter if you can't lower it any further) as I haven't had to deal with aftermarket cams yet...maybe someone else here has an idea?

[prophecymiller]

The stock fuel pressure should be 38-40psi + manifold pressure. So on my old stockish dsm, with -20psi vac at idle, I would have about 20psi fuel pressure and it would then go linearly up to about 60psi at 20psi boost. If you're going from 38 to 55, that's severely non-linear and is a big problem IMO.

I'm not sure if I am misunderstanding this, but it seems as though psi and in/Hg are being confused here. (37.5psi)-(~20in/Hg)= 27.68psi with the line connected.

Agreed that Terrible's fuel is not increasing linearly...he is going from 43psi to 55psi with 19psi boost. The fuel pressure should have been hitting 62psi.

[TerryLiv]

I'm not sure if I am misunderstanding this, but it seems as though psi and in/Hg are being confused here. (37.5psi)-(~20in/Hg)= 27.68psi with the line connected.

Agreed that Terrible's fuel is not increasing linearly...he is going from 43psi to 55psi with 19psi boost. The fuel pressure should have been hitting 62psi.

If he is overrunning the return line at idle, it could mean that his base fuel pressure setting is really 7 psi lower than the reading and when the fuel is going into the engine on boost it raises 19 psi above what the real base pressure is.

Am I thinking correctly?

Terry

[rlarsen]

With this new information, Doug, it is vitally important that you determine whether you were running brutally rich all this time (dating back to when we first fired the car and you were breaking it in). Extremely rich conditions can be devastating for break-ins and may shed some light on the oil loss situation. Basically fuel washing the ring/cylinder crosshatch interface during this critical time is a bad thing.

It would probably be impossible to truly diagnose a root cause/effect if this is the case without another teardown, but maybe if you can otherwise compile enough information related to your recently troubleshooting to determine whether this condition prevailed back to to break-in, it would help.

Personally, I would need a better explanation of why your wideband numbers seemed pretty okay if you were in fact super rich before I'd start to believe, fuel pressure data notwithstanding.

It's definitely positive otherwise that you seem to be heading in the right direction on your stumbling problem. I am in agreement with others here that the added demands of E85 are probably completely overwhelming your entire fuel system. I suspect you will certainly need to go up in pump size, and will need to run a new return line. It may also not be a bad idea to consider -8AN feed lines over the -6AN. What injectors are you currently running again? What is your duty cycle and pulse width reading in DSMLink? Keep in mind I haven't tuned a DSM in years so if I'm way off track here someone set me straight.

[rigby]

If he is overrunning the return line at idle, it could mean that his base fuel pressure setting is really 7 psi lower than the reading and when the fuel is going into the engine on boost it raises 19 psi above what the real base pressure is.

Am I thinking correctly?



I don't think so Terry (If I'm correctly understanding your question). When I studied this several years ago while designing my 'stevetek' system, this concept wasn't really intuitive to me at first. Just for folks referrence, here's the thought process...

Doug's pressure reading is coming from a fuel pressure gauge that is at or near the rail. So, assuming the sender is not malfunctioning, this is an accurate reading of the relative fuel pressure (fp) across the injectors.

As Doug mentioned, 'base pressure' is the measurement 'at atmosphere' which is why it's taken with the pressure line off the FPR. Regardless of any other factor, that reading should be near 40psi (or whatever the mfg spec for the injector is). Setting the FPR is typically just a matter of screwing down the adjusting spring until that pressure is read on the gauge. Then when we hook up the pressure line to the FPR, the pressure should 'follow' the manifold pressure 1:1. The result is that no matter what the vac/boost is, the relative fuel pressure across the injector is always the base (ie 40psi). This constant relative pressure is a built in assumption by the ECU, and is absolutely necessary to accurately calculate how much fuel is needed by the engine for the given load.

What happens when we upgrade from the stock supply line is that the pump now no longer has to overcome the big restriction of the stock fuel line and hence it can deliver way more volume of fuel. This is great at high loads/rpms, but the down side is that the return line is still the same tiny stock size. So at idle (low rpms), even with the FPR wide open (because of manifold vac pulling the orifice open), it can't flow as much volume as the pump is providing, so the return line, in effect, becomes it's own 'FPR', raising the relative pressure at the injectors.

This problem goes away as load and rpms go up because the injectors start squirting enough fuel to bleed away this excess flow, and the stock line can once again handle the return flow required. At that point the real FPR is back to regulating the fuel pressure.

[rigby]

I'm not sure if I am misunderstanding this, but it seems as though psi and in/Hg are being confused here. (37.5psi)-(~20in/Hg)= 27.68psi with the line connected.

Agreed that Terrible's fuel is not increasing linearly...he is going from 43psi to 55psi with 19psi boost. The fuel pressure should have been hitting 62psi.

Prophecy, good observation...

But if I remember Doug's boost gauge, I don't think there's a psi -vs- in/Hg confusion on this one. Both are units of pressure. As long as the manifold pressure is measured in psi and the fuel pressure is measured in psi (as I think Doug's doing), there should be a 1:1 correspondence and no conversion is needed.

I know that most N/A guys read manifold vac as in/Hg, and I've seen some boost gauges that do too, but when I had my dsm, my boost gauge read vac in psi so it was all good and easy :)

Cheers!

[prophecymiller]

But if I remember Doug's boost gauge, I don't think there's a psi -vs- in/Hg confusion on this one.

Ahh, both boost gauges I have had went to in/Hg on the vacuum side and I thought maybe that was being confused since the math didn't line up with -20psi being lower than a perfect vacuum:p(I think:confused:)

If he is overrunning the return line at idle, it could mean that his base fuel pressure setting is really 7 psi lower than the reading and when the fuel is going into the engine on boost it raises 19 psi above what the real base pressure is.

As Rigby mentioned, the afpr doesn't know what the pressure is when vacuum is applied and is only set at atmospheric conditions. This way when going into boost, at the boost threshold the fuel pressure will rise with at a 1:1 ratio and should go up exactly 19psi from it's atmospheric setting. This is providing that the fuel pressure is able to go below its atmospheric point under vacuum which Terrible has confirmed(I would imagine this would show that the base setting isn't being overrun at least). At this point though, Terrible has mentioned at a 38psi base setting, it is dropping to 34psi under vacuum, so we need to know what his manifold vacuum is to determine if the return is causing a restriction.

I'm not really sure if you should drop it further to line up with the factory spec with the line connected or disconnected(I would assume connected, although it may not matter if you can't lower it any further) as I haven't had to deal with aftermarket cams yet...maybe someone else here has an idea?

Disregard this as I was not keeping in mind that the goal is to keep the injectors under an equilibrium by adjusting the fuel pressure to follow manifold pressure. Obviously, the fuel pressure should be set at the factory spec with the line disconnected and it should be confirmed that the fuel pressure can drop at a 1:1 rate with vacuum applied.(just wanted to clarify for other readers)

[prophecymiller]

By the way Terrible Talon, how are your fuel trims? I could see this being a big issue as wot values are determined by an enrichment based on cruising conditions, so as you can imagine if your not starting with accurate metering, wot will be even more skewed.

[Terrible Talon]

I've been burning the candle at both ends lately and the car is only getting brief sporadic attention. I'm starting to get a bit impatient with it but it's my own fault for not spending focused time on getting it tuned for E85.
Sputtering has come back but not as bad as it was - particularly above 5500 rpm. I was able to drop the base pressure to 30 with vacuum hose connected (spec for stock 1G is 27) but this made me too lean - down to above (numerically) 12:1 wideband at higher rpms. It's become clear from the comments I'm getting and from my experience now that I need to set base pressure withOUT the vacuum hose connected, which I've done (38 psi), since the cams screw up vacuum. It drops to 34 with vacuum connected. I may still be too lean in the upper rev ranges though - wideband reading trends from slightly rich to rather lean as rpm goes up. I tried adding fuel above 5K but no change. I've not checked the fuel filter since the first tank (Just filled up for the 3rd time) so that could be an issue. I need to check that and perhaps look at the additional pump I mentioned plus the larger return line. But there are guys successfully running something like my setup with a Walbro & stock lines. My Supra pump & SteveTek setup should really provide plenty of fuel with the only problem being difficulty in setting base pressure because the pump might be overrunning the stock return line at idle as Steve suggests.

Also, for some unknown reason, peak boost has gone up about 4# (to 22+) after I started adjusting fuel pressure. What's up with that?! Profec B boost controller has not been touched! I need to back that off until I get a decent tune. In any case I'm reluctant to do any more WOT until I get things at least somewhat sorted out. I may just have to hire the services of a dsmlink guru.

Ryan:

The car was running rich the first couple of times I logged WOT. That was after quite a few break-in miles though (don't remember off hand how many) limited to partial throttle under 4000 rpm and solid stoich 14.7 the entire time. When I saw rich (as much as 9:1 wideband) at WOT I immediately tuned down to around 10.5. That's still a bit rich but I was seeing that (phantom?) knock and wanted to be safe. Hardly a wall-washing mixture though. I have all my logs and can review when I have time. In any case I've really never spent much time at WOT even after thorough break-in. Just enough for tuning (plus one short blast thru 2nd & 3rd against a new Turbo Porsche). To answer your other questions I'm running FIC 1050's, duty cycle was around 58% on gas & now around 80% on E85. Don't know what pulse-width is.

Heading to Atlanta tomorrow & gone until the weekend. Hopefully I'll have some time to spend on Terrible T when I get back. Thanks again for the input guys. Keep it coming!

Doug

[Terrible Talon]

By the way Terrible Talon, how are your fuel trims? I could see this being a big issue as wot values are determined by an enrichment based on cruising conditions, so as you can imagine if your not starting with accurate metering, wot will be even more skewed.

Right on! I need to do this before I do another thing (except clean fuel filter). My trims aren't all that far off right now though. Under 5.

Thanks,

D

[rlarsen]

Okay, yeah sounds like it wasn't fuel dumping then, which is good.

I think one piece of data I haven't spotted yet is what is your fuel pressure at maximum boost under WOT, and does the fuel pressure actually drop off as you near redline? I have seen this before (in my own cars even), and it definitely was a problem.

[Terrible Talon]

Thanks for the input guys.



Erron: Fuel pressure set to 1G base 38 psi. Pressure is stable but doesn't seem to give quite 1 to 1 increase for boost. I peak at about 55 psi with 19# boost. Should be 57#.

Ryan:

This from a previous post re. peak fuel pressure. I need to see what it looks like now since I reset base fp but I want to clean the fuel pressure and turn boost down first. My weekend is full so probably won't get to it until sometime next week.

Doug

[Terrible Talon]

I'm beginning to think I may actually get to the track again after all. I've finally gotten the hang of tuning for E85 and have Terrible T doing pretty well. The sputtering that was driving me crazy went away when I reduced plug gap to .020 from .022. Running 19# of boost now with little or no knock except throttle tip in. Wideband is pretty flat at WOT, holding around 11.4. I'm sure I could go leaner but want to be conservative for the track. I'll be gradually turning the boost up but need to deal with a few problems first: The Turbo (FP3052) center housing to turbine housing bolts keep working loose. I've tightened the ones I can get to but will have to drop the turbo to get to the rest. Anyone else ever run into this? Still using oil but not as much (Still no smoke or leaks). I may not need it but want to get the WI running reliably again. BTW, no black goo on injector tips and no crud in my fuel filter after about 5 tanks. I'm getting my E85 at Kum n go I-25 & Hwy 52.

Sounds like those of you running chumps had a ball. Wish I had time to be involved. This has been the worst 6 months in memory. Working three times as hard for 1/3 the money.

When can we get out to HPR? Erron, I'm going to need some pointers. Mid-week open track days?

Doug

[BlueVelocity]

Absolutely Doug. I think they are doing Friday track days, we'll have to look at the schedule. I'm ready to get Blue out as well.

[Terrible Talon]

Erron:

I've got a couple of weekends of work to do & also need new race tires - Khumos on the race wheels are about 5 yrs. old. So give me as much advance notice as possible when you decide you want to go.

D

[BlueVelocity]

I'm in the same boat. Family in town for the next few and I've also got a PDX coming up I'll be instructing for. Maybe we can get you out there on that day? Let me find out what day they are doing the PDX/Advanced PDX and I'll post it up.

Erron S.

[BlueVelocity]

Hey Doug,
On May 8th and 9th and I'll be instructing for the PDX and Advanced PDX at HPR. If you're interested buddy, that would be a great day.

[Terrible Talon]

Erron:

Sounds great. I'm going to try and make it.

Doug

[Terrible Talon]

Erron:

Sounds great. I'm going to try and make it.

Doug

Unfortunately life's been way to hectic the last several weeks to get ready for the track and I'm still having problems getting the car to run consistently well on E85. So, Erron, I won't be able to have Terrible T there but maybe I can drive out to spectate or help out in some way. What's your schedule?

Doug

[TerryLiv]

Doug,

What problems are you having getting it to run well. Symptoms?

Terry

[BlueVelocity]

Not sure yet. I'm trying to get my surge tank done on the car. I may not make it actually. (since you aren't going and it's mothers day on sunday) I seem to have projects coming out of my ears right now. :)

[Terrible Talon]

Doug,

What problems are you having getting it to run well. Symptoms?

Terry

Sorry for delay in replying Terry. Slammed lately. I have three basic problems: 1. Inconsistent tune on E85. 2. Oil use continues unabated. 3. sporadic knock. I suspect changing temps account for some of the inability to maintain a decent tune and I've discovered that the fuel filter seems to clog up with really fine stuff after as little as one tank of E85 and consequently I see wideband O2 showing leaner mixture. It goes back to around 12.5 - 12. 7 after the filter's cleaned. Also, I still get some sputtering occasionally. Plug gap needs to be EXACTLY .020. Sputters with .019 or .021. When tune is right it runs really hard but can't count on it staying right from day to day. I'm wondering if upgrading from dsmlink v2 to ECMlink and using their system that eliminates the translator for my GM MAF might help. Perhaps I need to just go directly to speed/density?

Re. the oil use, I'm seeing oil around the BOV outlet & valve housing and there's absolutely no trace of oil in the intake system before the turbo - not a single drop in my Saikou Michi catch can so I'm convinced the turbo seals are leaking. There's no other explanation - there is no other possible source. It seems feasible to me that it's a continuous leak but not enough to show exhaust smoke. Oil pools around the BOV valve housing even after just driving 20 minutes, or so, with no WOT so it seems entirely feasible to me that it's a continuous leak but not enough to show exhaust smoke except very briefly on initial application of WOT. Guess I need to pack up my 3052 and send it back to FP for new seals.

Knock. Still seems to be phantom because for the most part it's the same kind of low grade (less than 3 degrees of timing pulled) random stuff I saw with gasoline. Didn't make a bit of difference whether I was running 93 or 104 race gas. Also, reducing timing made no difference. Do see, once in awhile, jags of up to 7 to 10 upon part throttle application but that's pretty rare and occurs very randomly. Could it be possible that oil in the intake could be causing this knock??

Doug

[rlarsen]

Doug, if it turns out to be something wrong with the turbo, it's possible it was a result of it sitting in my garage for three years, so let me know and I will help take care of it.

Regarding the knock, have you completely ruled out a faulty knock sensor, signal, or mechanical noise? I admit I've even lost track of all the diagnosis and troubleshooting you've done to this point.

[TerryLiv]

Doug,

Regarding E-85 and the fuel filter. I plugged my filter within about the first tank of E-85, but with no problems since. Even now with 1/3 gas and 2/3 E-85 my car runs poorly when first started until the Goo leaves the injectors. Then after setting overnight it is back again. It runs great during WOT.

How long have you been running E-85?

I agree with the speed density idea, although I doubt that it will provide a significant improvement in the way the car runs compared to your MAFT. I am still on the MAFT.

Your knock has to be phantom, because with E-85 there is virtually no knock when on boost.

Hope to see you soon.

Terry

[Terrible Talon]

Doug, if it turns out to be something wrong with the turbo, it's possible it was a result of it sitting in my garage for three years, so let me know and I will help take care of it.

Regarding the knock, have you completely ruled out a faulty knock sensor, signal, or mechanical noise? I admit I've even lost track of all the diagnosis and troubleshooting you've done to this point.

Thanks for the reply Ryan. When I got the original 2.3 from FP with the 3052 it had extremely high oil pressure - almost pegging the stock guage - and, as it turns out, no restrictor in the oil feed line. I suspect this is what caused seal failure if that's what it turns out to be (& I can't think it could be anything else). I don't feel it's unreasonable to expect them to repair the turbo at no cost. It's probably safe to assume the problem started before your rebuild and in any case I doubt the long period of inactivity could have had an effect on the turbo seals. I have less than 5,000 miles on the motor since getting it from them, including the period after your rebuild, and never went more than 1200 miles between oil changes plus the turbo oil filter was cleaned after every oil change (not that it ever needed cleaning) so nothing in the operating environment could have contributed.

I installed a new knock sensor about 1,500 miles ago. It did not affect the knock situation in the least. I suppose random mechanical noise might be a cause but don't know how I'd track it down. Nothing audible to me.

D

[Terrible Talon]

Doug,

Regarding E-85 and the fuel filter. I plugged my filter within about the first tank of E-85, but with no problems since. Even now with 1/3 gas and 2/3 E-85 my car runs poorly when first started until the Goo leaves the injectors. Then after setting overnight it is back again. It runs great during WOT.

How long have you been running E-85?

I agree with the speed density idea, although I doubt that it will provide a significant improvement in the way the car runs compared to your MAFT. I am still on the MAFT.

Your knock has to be phantom, because with E-85 there is virtually no knock when on boost.

Hope to see you soon.

Terry

Hey Terry. Don't know why my filter is plugging up but I'll just continue to clean it with each new tank until the problem goes away. Been running E85 since January. Maybe 9 or 10 tanks by now. Haven't checked injectors for goo recently but last time I checked (about 6 weeks ago) no problem.

I suspect speed density might help eliminate the problem I have when ambient temps fluctuate. Any other wisdom re. going this route?

I've been assuming phantom knock since reducing boost, timing, or making the mixture richer in open loop doesn't seem to have any effect. But I'm reluctant to take any measures to restrict the ecu's ability to cut timing. Since I almost never see timing reduced more than 3 degrees I think I can just leave it alone. Still wonder, though, if ingested oil can be causing the knock I'm seeing?

Doug