Coilover recommendations

[red03evo]

I'm starting to think about improving the stock suspension on my 03 Evo.

I had a little problem with a strut. Not really satisfied with my temp solution (replaced it with a less used one) Before I buy a new stock set, I thought I'd look into putting that money towards possible improvements (since a new front and back stock set is fairly exspensive - 8 or 900 ???)

Just like the power mods, I imagine there are a lot of pointless so called upgrades out there.

One friend told me that meagans were nice and a great comprimise to "full blown set up (which I wouldn't know how to handle anyway),

... another said that it was pointless to look at anything that wasn't on the the level of a Robispec package

I was looking at a set by BC racing : RAM series coilovers; 46mm piston's instead of 44, better valving, better spring rates, more dampening, 1 year warranty and will be rebuildable. (mfgr's of Apexi and Megan)

(I would have any aftermarket set up corner-weighted and laser aligned)

I know about as much about this as I did power mods when I joined the list about 2 years ago ..... ahh yes.... many of you will remember those days :D (not saying I'm any smarter now, but hopefully not any dumber)

So where is reality on this issue? Is there middle ground on front and back coilovers, or are you throwing away your money on anything less than Ohlin's or KW's , etc...?

Thanks
Dean

[Paul]

are you throwing away your money on anything less than Ohlin's or KW's , etc...?

Thanks
Dean

I'm partial to Penske. Purpose of the car is really the start of this decision.

Paul

[yokotabrat]

I'm not sure if you're willing to open the tranny up, but I've heard upgrading the front diff makes a good difference. Granted I have no first hand knowledge, but Paul has had good things to say about doing this on his 2g, IIRC.

[Paul]

Granted I have no first hand knowledge, but Paul has had good things to say about doing this on his 2g, IIRC.

I don't know much about the Evo tranny. I think it has a Quaife-like front diff from the factory?

Paul

[yokotabrat]

I don't know much about the Evo tranny. I think it has a Quaife-like front diff from the factory?

Paul

I believe only 05 and above had a front LSD. Unless you had a 04 RS model.

[red03evo]

What about coilovers though?

Are there advantages to be had in modestly priced coilover set ups?

I assume that even if there are, you'd have to be sure you were lookin at a quality mfgr. and avoid the bling trinket stuff.

any of that make sense?

Thanks Dean

[Paul]

As I said before Dean - what is the purpose of the car. The Evo suspension is pretty good. Unless I was going to race it a lot I wouldn't bother. No offense, but I doubt the limits of the stock suspension have been reached.

Paul

[red03evo]

No offense, but I doubt the limits of the stock suspension have been reached.
Paul


Heyyyyyyyy ...... way to hit a guy when he's not looking :D


You did ask about the purpose of the car though,

I'd like to run some beginner level events next year. And of course, it "would" follow that the stock level has not been reached (hence "beginner level"), I'm not sure the limits of my Sidekick have even been reach to date :D

.... but, be that as it may, The reason that I'm looking to upgrade is that: (as "I" mentioned) I might have to replace the front stock struts because of a problem with one, so rather than spend 500 on stock replacements, I'm considering an extra 3 or 4 hundred to redo the works. I just don't know if Megan, BR, etc... are actual upgrades, and not tinsel and trinkets.

I don't want to degrade the performance level by buying inferior components, but KW, JIC, Ohlins and the like, are more that I want to spend (or likely need)

Just looking for informed opinions on the matter.
Dean

[Paul]

Heyyyyyyyy ...... way to hit a guy when he's not looking :D

I'd like to run some beginner level events next year.
Dean

Gee, I thought you were looking. The only reason I said that is when I drove an Evo the stock suspension was very good. I doubt many have reached the limits if they are not racing it.

I assume by events you mean autox. Check what class you want to be in before you do anything to your car! If you have already made some changes (not sure what you have done) then prepare to spend big bucks to be competitive.

Spend a summer running the car and then decide what the next step will be. It will be a lot more cost effective and will provide better results.

Paul

[red03evo]

Check what class you want to be in before you do anything to your car! If you have already made some changes (not sure what you have done) then prepare to spend big bucks to be competitive.
Paul


Oops! Might be too late: Full Ex including Os housing w/hfc, Cams & Gears, Hotside, Utec eng mgmt, fuel pump.

Guess I might have to un-mod (if they allow that).

[Paul]

I think you are in Street Modified now. You will be competing against Bob Tunnell. You can still have fun though.

You should just save up for this so you can compete:

Moton Motorsport (triple adjustable) coilovers with John's custom specifications. Each set includes 4 springs, front camber plates, and rear spherical bearing mounts; helpersprings, if required, are extra. Tuned to each customers specific application (set-up included).
Price: $7300

:)

Paul

[red03evo]

I think you are in Street Modified now. You will be competing against Bob Tunnell. You can still have fun though.

You should just save up for this so you can compete:

Moton Motorsport (triple adjustable) coilovers with John's custom specifications. Each set includes 4 springs, front camber plates, and rear spherical bearing mounts; helpersprings, if required, are extra. Tuned to each customers specific application (set-up included).
Price: $7300

:)

Paul

Yeah the STOCK suspension does sound really good ...... :D

[BlueVelocity]

:eek: Good grief Paul! LOL

Moton's are very nice, as is the Penske. Allow me to toss out some other ideas.

JIC, sweet suspension. Priced right, very robust, multiple spring rates readily available. All replacement parts are also available, fully rebuildable. Plus the latest generation has dust boots and spin mounts for anti-binding of the springs. I run these.

Tokico's with ground controls. The best bang for the buck, hands down. Many top scca auto x guys go this route. Very competitive, and the price sure is right. Excellent customer service through Tokico.

K-Sport. Not much known about these yet, but it looks like you get a good amount for not much money. Don't know of a single soul racing on these, FWIW.

Just a few to throw out ideas. I would seriously look at the Tokico's. That would be less expensive and probably get you close to where you want to be. I would test out the car and see what it's doing. The good 'ol zip tie on the shock works best. Also does the car seem to "spring up" when transitioning from corner to corner, etc. The simple answer is no suspension is perfect. Each driver has their own driving style, some shocks are more forgiving than others. IE., Too stiff, driver that flogs the gas and the wheel, and you're in the dirt. Whereas if he had a softer suspension, he could recover easily. I learned when I switched from GAB/Intrax to JIC that I needed to relearn what I was telling the car to do. A quick flick of the wheel no longer bound the suspension into a corner, it now made me lose control. As all suspension goes, you'll need to adjust it until YOU are the fastest you can be. It might not be the hardest spring, or highest dampening level, but it keeps you on course, on line, and not off the track or bashing cones.

...a couple of pennies...

Erron S.

[Kibo]

I'll throw out a few responses as well.

If you haven't replaced the turbo nor modified the boost control, I think your listed mods would allow you to stay in Street Prepared (except for maybe the turbine housing?). It all depends on whether you're out there to have fun or to be competitive--but speaking from experience, it sucks to be outclassed and nowhere near competitive due to something as minor as a boost controller. :p

JIC, sweet suspension. Priced right, very robust, multiple spring rates readily available. All replacement parts are also available, fully rebuildable. Plus the latest generation has dust boots and spin mounts for anti-binding of the springs. I run these.
Speaking from a DSM background, JICs are a good option for the price. They're not in the same league as Penskes or Motons, but they're a big upgrade from stock on a DSM. The adjustable camber pillowball mounts are a big plus for handling, but you'll experience more NVH (a negative for daily driving). They use needle adjusters, which makes them non-repeatable adjustment-wise and difficult to balance side-to-side (virtually impossible without a shock dyno).

Tokico's with ground controls. The best bang for the buck, hands down. Many top scca auto x guys go this route. Very competitive, and the price sure is right. Excellent customer service through Tokico.
You can go far with Tokicos, but I wouldn't say that 'many top scca auto x guys go this route'. The twin-tube design and the fact that one adjuster controls both compression and rebound make these shocks inferior to the aforementioned options...but they're also much less expensive. I don't know if these would be an upgrade from a stock EVO suspension, though.

K-Sport. Not much known about these yet, but it looks like you get a good amount for not much money. Don't know of a single soul racing on these, FWIW.
I'm not familiar with these.

My last comment would be that alignment, spring choice, swaybar selection and setup, and tires/wheels will have a much larger and more apparent impact on handling when it comes to autoX. If I had it to do all over again, I'd rather start in a stock class and take that as far as I could go before moving up to SP or SM. If you're serious about getting into autoX, look at the rulebooks and choose your mods carefully.

[Paul]

:eek: Good grief Paul! LOL


Erron S.

Of course I was not serious.

I ran GC coilovers and Tokico shocks for a long time. It is what I have on the car now. Tokico has replaced both of my rear shocks for free (maybe I paid shipping?).

As Erik has mentioned - measure your wallet before you start modding.

The best mod is negative camber. The Evo has an adjustment for -2. You would really be surprised what that will do!

Paul

[BlueVelocity]

They use needle adjusters, which makes them non-repeatable adjustment-wise and difficult to balance side-to-side (virtually impossible without a shock dyno).

You would be surprised how well Jake and I got mine set up. That day alone I dropped a full second. :D

You can go far with Tokicos, but I wouldn't say that 'many top scca auto x guys go this route'. The twin-tube design and the fact that one adjuster controls both compression and rebound make these shocks inferior to the aforementioned options...but they're also much less expensive. I don't know if these would be an upgrade from a stock EVO suspension, though.

Ah, you havn't been reading your Sports Car or Grassroots subscriptions..
They usually run an ad from the Natioal Solo tour with something like 3 or 4 top finishers run these.

Erron S.

[D Walker]

We are trying a new Tanabe damper on the EVO 9, will let you know how they do.

The Moton shocks are very nice, Ohlins are obviously very very nice.

IMHO Tokicos are next to worthless for competition use, almost impossible to get proper dampening out of.

My honest opinion is that 90% of the dampers available will work fine and make little difference until you have refined your setup for the application. Granted that its literally been 10 years since I auto-xed seriously, and all my experience is in club or pro racing, but I would concentrate more on the setup first with a mediocre set of dampers like Tein, Tokico, etc.

[Kibo]

You would be surprised how well Jake and I got mine set up. That day alone I dropped a full second. :D
I'm not saying JICs are crap...just pointing out their inherent design disadvantages. There's a reason they cost more than Tokico and less than Penske/Moton/Ohlin shocks. In your particular case, I would hope that *any* new shocks would have been faster than your OEM original-year shocks with the rears locked out between settings, etc. ;) FWIW, I have JICs on the Galant.

Ah, you havn't been reading your Sports Car or Grassroots subscriptions..
They usually run an ad from the Natioal Solo tour with something like 3 or 4 top finishers run these.
I don't even have subscriptions this year...I knew I wouldn't have time to autoX this year with the wedding and all, so I let my SCCA membership lapse. :p Now that the wedding is over, I'll be gearing up for next year over the winter.

I am currently running a modified GC/Tokico setup on my 2G with RRE spherical bearing ('pillowball') mounts. Like Paul, I've had to replace two Tokico shocks. In theory mine are under warranty, but Tokico told me I had to go through the seller and I haven't had time to take care of that yet. Both were hemhorraging oil within a year--perhaps due to high spring rates (500/400), or perhaps from bottoming out the piston.

Don't overlook Paul's advice: suspension aligment (especially front camber) will have a huge effect on your car's handling. Aftermarket anti-swaybars can change the character of your car instantly (ask me about snap oversteer on my 2G...). And if you plan to race, read the rules to see what mods are allowed in each category. You can learn a lot from the experiences of others who race their vehicle.

If you feel the need to upgrade your suspension, start with your goals, determine your budget, and work backwards. There are trade-offs down every path, that's for sure!

[D Walker]

Like Paul, I've had to replace two Tokico shocks. In theory mine are under warranty, but Tokico told me I had to go through the seller and I haven't had time to take care of that yet. Both were hemhorraging oil within a year--perhaps due to high spring rates (500/400), or perhaps from bottoming out the piston.



Exactly my experience with Tokico, going back to the DSP VW Scirocco(****rocket) and the AP MR2 in 1994/5/6. It has nothing to do with your shock/spring rates IMHO, but rather that you are using the dampers for thier advertised purpose and they are no built well enough to deal with the heat(they generate a lot more than comparable shocks) and the stresses. I also could never get consistent dampening from them and in a track application they heated up enough to make any setting that worked a lap prior useless for subsequent laps. I literally gave away my last set to a friend.

Penske's are choice, Ohlins are IMHO better. Motons are good on some cars and suck on others. ProTrax are extremely good, but have limited Support in this country. Leda is Ok, but IMHO thier valving sucks as they come so unless you have data and a dyno your effed. There are others, like Spax. Koni, etc, and they are all good if you know what you are doing with them.

Of the "Shelf shocks" like Tein, JIC, Apexi, Megan, D1, Tanabe, etc I have found they are pretty much adequate for most drivers, but the Tanabe, Apexi, and higher end Teins are FAR better that the others. Lower end Teins are basically the monroe's of JDM.

Setup is key unless you are a very very good driver. If you do not understand setup(and many do not) do a lot of research. I might have some information in text form somewhere and may post it if I find it.

[Paul]

Exactly my experience with Tokico, going back to the DSP VW Scirocco(****rocket) and the AP MR2 in 1994/5/6. It has nothing to do with your shock/spring rates IMHO, but rather that you are using the dampers for thier advertised purpose and they are no built well enough to deal with the heat(they generate a lot more than comparable shocks) and the stresses. I also could never get consistent dampening from them and in a track application they heated up enough to make any setting that worked a lap prior useless for subsequent laps. I literally gave away my last set to a friend.

Penske's are choice


I would think that Tokico improved their shock a little over the last 10 years - at least I would hope. I think they were a little surprised when I gave them a 5 year old invoice number. IIRC I managed 1:20's at SC with them and wimpy 225 tires. I'm not disagreeing with you - I don't think they are a top shock either but like a DSM - best bang for the buck.

Ummm Penske - is that Erik smiling?

Paul

[Kibo]

I would think that Tokico improved their shock a little over the last 10 years - at least I would hope. I think they were a little surprised when I gave them a 5 year old invoice number. IIRC I managed 1:20's at SC with them and wimpy 225 tires. I'm not disagreeing with you - I don't think they are a top shock either but like a DSM - best bang for the buck.
I could attribute one of the blown Tokicos to bottoming out, as I went over a poorly filled cut in the road that bottomed out the car pretty hard about a week before I noticed the shock leaking. The other failure was in the rear, though--unlikely that it bottomed out with 400lb/in springs and the spherical bearing mounts, and there shouldn't have been any sideloading on the shaft either. *shrug*
Ummm Penske - is that Erik smiling?
:D

[red03evo]

well I guess I'm going to think on it a while. I could pick up the BC Racing (mgfr or Megan and Apexi) for 879 shipped, but I recently google'd them and found some complaints that they were leaking in less than a week.

Still thinking about the JIC FLTA2 Coilovers , going to compare them to the Tokico's- but may be I'll run stock for a while.

Thanks for the comments and help, I 'll read the rules and see where I need to take things back to stock.

The current IC is a little large, better suited for drag because of the slower spool up, I don't mind it on the on the street, but I think I may experiment going back to a stock IC and O2 housing. Seemed spunkier back then, and I certainly didn't get any really great surprises at Bandimere with them. I know a lot of it was my driving, but there was a power issue.

I've even entertained starting over with a IX or a cream puff 2005 VIII (my first choice - except I have a trade, and the likelyhood of finding one at a dealer seems pretty slim.)

I just don't think that realizing the power that "should be there" is going all that well - I'd hang in if I knew for certain that I just needed to unlock what I have "modded into" the engine.

Maybe I'll get a grey one, ..... lose the wing .... get a black coated IC .... tint the windows .............make it reeeaalll fast .... and be broke for the rest of my adult(?) life ........

(never tried it but): this must be worse than crack. :D

[D Walker]

If you want you can swing by the shop and I can take a few minutes to go over some of the suspensions available.

[Mr. Moose]

Another reasonable option is the Bilstein MR suspension, which is often available on EvoM for $600 or so.

I have KWs under my Evo. You're welcome to a ride to assess their capabilities. The Evo Ohlins gurus live in Boulder and in Ft. Collins (they do the valving on Vishnu's suspension offerings) and would allow you to compare, if you get into that price range. JICs are very difficult to get "even", as Eric mentioned. On VR4.org, a suspension rally guy put JICs and others on a shock dyno, and they were very inconsistent. Just food for thought...

[red03evo]

Another reasonable option is the Bilstein MR suspension, which is often available on EvoM for $600 or so.

I have KWs under my Evo. You're welcome to a ride to assess their capabilities. The Evo Ohlins gurus live in Boulder and in Ft. Collins (they do the valving on Vishnu's suspension offerings) and would allow you to compare, if you get into that price range. JICs are very difficult to get "even", as Eric mentioned. On VR4.org, a suspension rally guy put JICs and others on a shock dyno, and they were very inconsistent. Just food for thought...

That's the stuff that I need to hear.

I am actually very seriously considering the Bilstein's