Rebuilding engine...could use some advice

[dsm_gsx97]

So my block is currently out gettting rebuilt. I have my rods and pistons, but haven't bought my main studs or bearing's yet. With the bearings I'm waiting to see if I need oversized or something, but mainly I haven't decided on what bearing to go with. My machine guy says he likes the 3 layer Clevite 77s, but he's also heard good things about King bearings. I know some of you might suggest sticking with the stock bearings. The mains haven't been bought because I recall years ago some CoDSM members talking about using stock mains instead of ARPs because of something or another. I would like to hear from any of those guys and anyone else that has useful input. Of course you need to know some goals in order to give good advice.

Goals...
Is track only car...
Engine is being built to run single digit 1/4 mile times...
Keeping my 7-bolt engine (good mojo) which will have Groden Aluminum rods (442 grams each), and Ross Pistons going in with a knife edged crank that should lose close to 8lbs once its diet is done. Running a lightened Fidanza flywheel also, so from just guessing I'm loosing close to 25lbs off the rotating assembly. Everything will be balanced up to 10K. A Nitrous Express direct port Piranha kit will be used also with 100-400hp jets. I am keeping 8.5:1 compression at 0.020 over because Shep was able to run mid 9's on that compression so I figure I should be able to too. Hoping to rev car up to 10K. 1G head with dual springs and titanium retainers, 1mm oversized valves, HKS 272 cams and all my other stuff I've had. Next year will probably run a FP T-67 or larger, but need to sell the FP Red first and figure out my nitrous setup before I'll play with the big stuff.

Please only constructive comments. If you think I'm full of it or something else keep it to yourself. I only want useful info from knowledgable people. No trolls...

Thanks

[BlueVelocity]

Your machinist is correct in the advice on the Clevite 77's. I've used their products for years and have had fantastic luck with them. They always mic out nice, and plastiguage very evenly. (I've only spun one rod bearing in the 6g72 and it was with the stock Mitsu bearings) Not saying that the bearing was the cause, it was more likely the combo of Way over-rev and boost. (my fault admitted) Clevite is also very popular and I've never heard anything bad about them and are also reasonably priced.

As far as the studs, if you have the means, the ARP's would be cheap insurance. I know what you're building and it will have a tremendous amount of power. With your setup, I would shriek at the thought of anything designed for stock power.

Erron S.

[dsm_gsx97]

As far as the studs, if you have the means, the ARP's would be cheap insurance. I know what you're building and it will have a tremendous amount of power. With your setup, I would shriek at the thought of anything designed for stock power.
Erron S.

Well I guess I should explain what I mean a little better. :p

I'm not saying that ARPs aren't the right thing for the strength. What I mean is I've hear they are not a tight fit with the caps causing movement. What I remember from the old posts is that the big guys (Shep, Glazier, Buscher) were using the stock mains because of this. Of course if the old CoDSM archives were up and running I'd find the old posts. I think I remember Erik A., Carl, and someone else (Steve W.?) discussing it. But who knows, that was a few years ago. Just looking for any input about this. Otherwise I'll go ARPs for sure.


Thanks

[BlueVelocity]

Well I guess I should explain what I mean a little better. :p

I'm not saying that ARPs aren't the right thing for the strength. What I mean is I've hear they are not a tight fit with the caps causing movement. What I remember from the old posts is that the big guys (Shep, Glazier, Buscher) were using the stock mains because of this. Of course if the old CoDSM archives were up and running I'd find the old posts. I think I remember Erik A., Carl, and someone else (Steve W.?) discussing it. But who knows, that was a few years ago. Just looking for any input about this. Otherwise I'll go ARPs for sure.


Thanks


Ah, that makes sense. I would be inclined to call ARP with the dimension of the bolt and ask if they have a "thicker" solution. If people aren't buying their product because of this, I'd be they'd like to know. (try to work in a discount somehow for the knowledge)

Erron S.

[dsm_gsx97]

Ya who knows if this is even an issue anymore. I just want to make sure it's done right when I do it. I should have asked Russ Coxe when I bought these rods off of him what he used in his 9 second 7-bolt.

[BlueVelocity]

Ya who knows if this is even an issue anymore. I just want to make sure it's done right when I do it. I should have asked Russ Coxe when I bought these rods off of him what he used in his 9 second 7-bolt.

That would be a great guy to ask.

Erron S.

[Kibo]

If I weren't using a girdle on my 6-bolt rebuild, I'd probably just go with stock mains (the girdle necessitates the use of ARP studs). If you go with ARP studs, you'll need to have the block align honed--the studs deform the mains differently than stock bolts, and the thrust bearing will likely wear out prematurely.

I agree with Erron on the Clevites.

[ErikW]

If I weren't using a girdle on my 6-bolt rebuild, I'd probably just go with stock mains (the girdle necessitates the use of ARP studs). If you go with ARP studs, you'll need to have the block align honed--the studs deform the mains differently than stock bolts, and the thrust bearing will likely wear out prematurely.

I agree with Erron on the Clevites.

Isn't it a needed practice to use a prybar (in a safe fasion) to force the crank against the thrust surface, before torquing down the mains, for an adaquate seat as a main concern instead?
I had crank walk the first rebuild almost right away. And this was in a 6bolt! This first time I had it done by a shop. I wonder if they even did this practice.
I have arp everythings.
After adaquate lube, I'd much rathar go with studs any day vs. bolts.

[Van]

I'm not saying that ARPs aren't the right thing for the strength. What I mean is I've hear they are not a tight fit with the caps causing movement. What I remember from the old posts is that the big guys (Shep, Glazier, Buscher) were using the stock mains because of this.

Yep. Stock is king. I contemplated getting one of the girdles when first offered up but decided against it because of the ARP studs being needed. Shep's engine lasted quite awhile. Don't mess with perfection.

On the bearings, I've seen many, many posts over the years from rebuilds that are fairly new that have wasted a bearing. About 99% of those posts used aftermarket bearings because they were cheaper than the Mitsu bearings. Most of our stock Mitsu bottom ends last well over 100k miles. Again I'd not mess with perfection. Also, Mitsu does NOT offer oversize bearings for a reason and that reason is very clearly stated in TFM.

[97TurboTalon]

I've heard that ACL makes some nice aftermarket bearings for our cars. Might be another brand to look at. With my rebuild I went with the stock mitsubishi bearings.

[rlarsen]

Stay with Clevite or factory bearings, no reason to try anything else. Frankly, if the oiling system is doing its job, the bearings hardly matter, provided they're not of such poor quality as to actually be mis-sized or otherwise messed up from the factory. I've always used Clevite, zero failures. I consider them and factory to be roughly equal, Clevite's are a little cheaper is all. If you're know what you're doing, you can use the crappiest bearing in the world and do enough work on it to get it to fit properly (although I wouldn't recommend it).

With what you're planning to do, you will absolutely, 100% need to align hone the mains if you're going with ARP studs. In my opinion, they're a total waste of money, seeing as how Rau ran factory main bolts when he was probably making at least 1200HP. Also, good luck finding a machine shop around here than can even do an align hone on a 7-bolt, since the caps are one big tied piece. The only motors I even let people insist on main studs (there's been a couple) are 2.4's, since they have separate main caps and are much easier to deal with.

[dsm_gsx97]

I really appreciate all the good posts. Found all the info I was looking for. I ended up going with the Clevite 3 layer race bearings. Keeping the stock mains and girdle instead of going with billet caps and ARPs. I'm running a Togo oil pump to give me the extra oil pressure, and I'm plugging the oil squirters.

I haven't looked into this yet, but Shawn M. was searching NABR and ran into some motor issue posts and some of it is pointing to high oil pressure because of the Toga (or at least high oil pressure). He said on NABR that some people are hogging out the oil relief valve on the filter housing to allow it to relieve some of the extra pressure the Toga creates in combo with plugged oil squirters. Anyone else heard of this? I've been trying to get onto NABR for a while now with no luck so Vern, Ryan and a few others of you are the only reference I have to that list without hours of searching. Can anyone comment on this part or are you not allowed to talk about fight club? :D

That's really the last thing I need to figure out. Block will be done by Memorial day weekend because I have 2 other blocks infront of me so I have a little time. Thanks again for the good info guys. I appreciate it.

[dsm_gsx97]

Oddly enough it looks like Erik W. is asking the same thing in another post in here about the high oil pressure and hogging the valve.
http://co.dsm.org/forums/showthread.php?t=76

[Kibo]

Hogging out the relief port on the oil pressure relief valve is a good idea, especially if you have balance shafts removed and the squirters plugged. It won't directly lower your oil pressure (i.e. at idle), but it allows the pressure relief valve to maintain a lower pressure if the pressure from the oil pump is high.

Just make sure that the valve itself moves smoothly after you're done porting. Michelle's car had excessive oil pressure despite porting the relief port on her car, and I suspect it may have been due to the piston hanging up within the bore. :(

[Mr. Moose]

Mitsu does NOT offer oversize bearings for a reason and that reason is very clearly stated in TFM.

Vern is correct that Mitsu does not offer undersize bearings for the 4g63 Turbo. They do, however, produce undersize bearings for other motors with journal sizes that will fit the 4g63 motor, so you CAN build a 4g63 using factory bearings on undersize crank journals... :)

On the ARP vs. stock main bolts issue, there has been some interesting testing that I've seen described that suggests that stock bolts are as strong in that application as ARP main studs/bolts are anyway, and do not have the sizing issues that ARPs do...YMMV.

[Mr. Moose]

Shawn M. was searching NABR and ran into some motor issue posts and some of it is pointing to high oil pressure because of the Toga (or at least high oil pressure). He said on NABR that some people are hogging out the oil relief valve on the filter housing to allow it to relieve some of the extra pressure the Toga creates

This is not just an issue with Toga pumps. Many people have also had this issue with new Mitsu front covers and pumps. The solution is NOT modifying the valve itself; it's porting the pressure relief port hole larger. You remove the valve while you're doing this. :)

[cyberslug]

I heard a nasty rumor going around that clevite was filling tri-metal bearing orders with the bi-metal ones. Just something you may want to double check if you go with them.

Tony

[Rice Killer]

I have been running ARP mains for the last 20k miles with absolutly no issues. I'm also running ARP Head studs and rod bolts. I would go with a Cometic Head gasket or Mitsubishi 3layer Metal gasket. I'm also running stock Mitsu bearings, this is on a 6bolt, I think you have a few more options with the 7bolt. Just a FYI

[dsm_gsx97]

I was going to go with a Cometic HG, but then after reading on the site and taking to Darren over at FFWDConnection I've gone with the SCE Titan ICS Headgasket.

http://www.ffwdconnection.com/headgaskets.shtml (second one below the mitsu metal one)

Next best thing if your not O-ringing the block. With the pounding this engine is going to take this made me smile from ear to ear. :D

You can order them at Summit and you can order directly from SCE, but this is a very popular option and these gaskets are pretty much backorder everywhere now. Darren for the most part kept 4G63 and 4G64 ones on hand and should be able to continue this hopefully. Shawn has been waiting a few weeks for his from Summit and its been backordered a few more weeks I heard. Kenny has his already. Darren yesterday said that even though he's out now he will have them early next week again for anyone else interested.

[Wazzelby]

I have been running the Cometic HG for about 6 months with no problems yet. I'll let you know how well it holds up to the stroker motor at about 28 PSI in a few weeks. Great find though! I may consider this if I ever have a reason to remove the head again anytime soon - let's hope not...

[Van]

I would've advised against a Toga oil pump, in favor of Mitsu parts as well.

One thing to check for, no matter what brand new oil pump you choose, believe it or not, is for smoothness of the oil pump gear edges. Carefully examine your new oil pump gears for any sharpness/roughness/burrs on the edge of the gear's teeth. Smooth as necessary.
This may save you from demolishing the pump and front case later.

I'd also suggest that you leave the squirters operational. I know that many people remove them, but cooler pistons are better, period. Plus you'd have less oil pressure problems. ;)

[dsm_gsx97]

Crossing my fingers then because the block is already sent off with the oil squirters being plugged (but this is a race engine only so I'm not as worried), and the Toga is getting the BSR treatment as we speak. I think I'm going to get the pressure port drill pressed like Quinn did and see how things go from there. I was hoping to get the block back by this weekend, but the crank is going to take till the end of the week so balancing will happen Tuesday and I should have it Wednesday or Thrusday. Gives me one week to tune the EMS and have her ready for Import Nationals on the 11th. Hope I have her ready in time. Eh, it always works out...

[BlueVelocity]

Crossing my fingers then because the block is already sent off with the oil squirters being plugged (but this is a race engine only so I'm not as worried), and the Toga is getting the BSR treatment as we speak. I think I'm going to get the pressure port drill pressed like Quinn did and see how things go from there. I was hoping to get the block back by this weekend, but the crank is going to take till the end of the week so balancing will happen Tuesday and I should have it Wednesday or Thrusday. Gives me one week to tune the EMS and have her ready for Import Nationals on the 11th. Hope I have her ready in time. Eh, it always works out...

Whew, made me tired just reading it....

Good luck man! If you don't make it in time, eh, it's just one race, no worries.

Erron S.

[dsm_gsx97]

Whew, made me tired just reading it....

Good luck man! If you don't make it in time, eh, it's just one race, no worries.

Erron S.

LOL, I am tired. I'm actually lucky this time around. Bandimere is having a Race car only (12.5 and faster) T&T on that Tuesday, then regular T&T on that Wednesday, then there is a Club Clash on Friday with Imports on Sunday. Plenty of track time. :D

[BlueVelocity]

LOL, I am tired. I'm actually lucky this time around. Bandimere is having a Race car only (12.5 and faster) T&T on that Tuesday, then regular T&T on that Wednesday, then there is a Club Clash on Friday with Imports on Sunday. Plenty of track time. :D


There's tons of time there. Even if you make that June race a personal test day, you'll still be there right? :D

Erron S.

[dsm_gsx97]

There's tons of time there. Even if you make that June race a personal test day, you'll still be there right? :D

Erron S.

Oh of course. I've been in the national event going on 5 or 6 years now. Can't break the cycle now. I've had much closer moments than this 2 years ago. We were putting my head on the night before and starting the car at 11PM. You might remember that event because I shot a 5ft flame out of my car because I was low on gas when getting on I-70 to go to Bandi. Was that the year we matched up and I broke the center diff against you too? Ahh...good times.

[BlueVelocity]

Oh of course. I've been in the national event going on 5 or 6 years now. Can't break the cycle now. I've had much closer moments than this 2 years ago. We were putting my head on the night before and starting the car at 11PM. You might remember that event because I shot a 5ft flame out of my car because I was low on gas when getting on I-70 to go to Bandi. Was that the year we matched up and I broke the center diff against you too? Ahh...good times.

Yeah, I think so. Didn't Kenny or someone also do a turbo swap that night?

Erron S.

[dsm_gsx97]

Yeah, I think so. Didn't Kenny or someone also do a turbo swap that night?

Erron S.

That was me too. :) Head bolts and the Green setup all went in then. Got it all together so fast that night I was leaking fluid out of what I thought was the driver side axle. That morning in half light (waiting for you to get to Kenny's) I got under there and realized I had left the oil pulley check plug out of the engine and was leaking from there. Kenny had to slap me around a bit for that one.

Just talked to Magnus and they don't know if they'll have the intake to me by the 2nd, but more like the 5th or 6th. I ordered right in the middle of their move to their new building. Maybe I'll get lucky on that one and it will come on the 2nd.

[XakEp]

Crossing my fingers then because the block is already sent off with the oil squirters being plugged (but this is a race engine only so I'm not as worried), and the Toga is getting the BSR treatment as we speak. I think I'm going to get the pressure port drill pressed like Quinn did and see how things go from there. I was hoping to get the block back by this weekend, but the crank is going to take till the end of the week so balancing will happen Tuesday and I should have it Wednesday or Thrusday. Gives me one week to tune the EMS and have her ready for Import Nationals on the 11th. Hope I have her ready in time. Eh, it always works out...

Just make sure to take the whole thing apart and hot tank it so that you know you got ALL the metal shavings out. It pays to be paranoid.

[dsm_gsx97]

Just make sure to take the whole thing apart and hot tank it so that you know you got ALL the metal shavings out. It pays to be paranoid.


Do you remember what size you drilled it out too? I was going to sit there and check it out at the machine shop, but if you can remember what size you drilled it out to that would save me some time.

[XakEp]

Do you remember what size you drilled it out too? I was going to sit there and check it out at the machine shop, but if you can remember what size you drilled it out to that would save me some time.

I did it two years ago, I cant recall what size it was off the top of my head. It was just a bit bigger than the existing holes. Just match the bits to the hole.